Woman stabbed in Peckham last night (Lounged)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Since when did Thornton Heath become Souf London?

> That's well and truly the depths of Surrey.>

> ...we'd sing and dance for ever and a day ...

........Nah! London Borough of Croydon,innit:)

Actually I was going to mention Thornton Heath on here,yesterday...I know 5 friends who left Kennington and Camberwell who moved to 5 different parts of affluent TH in 1967/70....from Affluence to Effluence in 35 years I would suggest.

Now all 5 have moved further out..1/ From Mayfield Road to Edenbridge..2/ From Galpins Road to Ashford

3/ From near Warwick Road to Madstone.4/ From near The Pond to Tenterden,Kent..5/ From that Road that has a "North and South" to Chichester...how times change....

[Marmora Man]

I've been reading this with growing disillusion. It isn't up to the normal EDF level of discourse - a significant minority are arguing from the particular to the general - which is always dangerous.

I usually set out to challenge soft left wing woolly liberalism - but some of the voices commenting on this thread appall me.

Policing (in the broadest sense) depends upon community agreement - we agree (or grow up with and imbibe with mother's milk) certain norms of behaviour and we empower others (uniformed police, community leaders, the older and more wiser etc) to enforce those norms. Somehow, in some sections of British society those norms are breaking down - poverty and deprivation can lead to that break down, but are not a necessary pre-condition.

There was no golden age when violence, poverty. deprivation did not exist and claiming that changes to the make up of British society have created the problem are naive - and the subliminal (or not so subliminal) racism of some arguments here is just ignorance.

The hard question is not why is it happening - but what can we do to stop it? Empirically societies with higher levels of education, better housing, stable families tend to have less problems - so how do we give these advantages to others?

I have some thoughts - based on libertarian ideals but would like to see if we can lift this discussion to a higher level before I set them out.

[SeanMacGabhann]

from a left-wing liberal to a right-of-centre libertarian, bravo MM

[SteveT]

Dangerous, aggressive behaviour is nothing at all to do with poverty.

Poverty was rife in the fifties, we were lucky to have a warm house, a decent hot meal and dry feet.

There were very few murders and/or stabbings although there was widespread poverty.

There was much better discipline and people seemed to have more pride/shame/standards.

This controlled their behaviour as the neighbours would frown on the 'bad' family in the street.

Not surprisingly, the police are intimidated by the potentially violent portion of the population, but they would nick you and I, as we are 'soft targets'.

One year after I left school (1961) they stopped using the cane, and when I read about it in the local paper, I thought it was the beginning of the end.

I could not imagine how the majority of the teaching staff could control the classroom without that threat.

Most of us when we misbehaved at home got a clout, and it was non-negotiable, if you were caught breaking the rules a slap or two followed. When the schools were denied this, then the majority of teaching staff were no longer taken seriously.

After bawling the child out there was nothing else to be done.

Where as a 'telling off' at home was used for a less serious offence, something more serious would earn a couple of well aimed slaps, suddenly there was nothing else the schools could do, they were hamstrung.

[missd]

that is a big problem now. teachers can't do anything. kids can talk back argue, and they know that teachers are not able to do a whole deal

i'm not sitting here advocating caning etc etc but just saying that the respect for teachers has gone.

when i was younger, if, at a parents evening my teacher said bad stuff about me -or my attitude etc - i knew that i would be told off by my folks when we got in the car/home (not hit or anything but told off, and know that they were really disappointed in me -which is so much worse than just getting a clip round the ear!)

my parents had a lot of respect for education, and therefore the providers of that education, the teachers.

some of my friends who are teachers say their hands are tied really as if they tell a child off or demand to see a parent etc, the parent sometimes comes in shouting or getting 'aggro' with the teacher instead of listening to the problems that child has and dealing with them.

[SeanMacGabhann]

With all this talk of teaching and problem kids I'm tempted to point everyone in the direction of series 4 of The Wire

Must be some teachers on here who can speak from personal experience.

My opinion is that corporal punishment is both wrong and unnecessary - several scandinavian countries manage to produce more civilised children without the need. I remember corporal punishment vividly from my childhood and in my darker moments I still sketch out elaborate revenge planse a la "Complicity" (legal disclaimer: not really)

If respect has gone for the teaching profession isn't it because, compared with 30/40 years ago, society as a whole has lost respect for it. Once a well-paid member of the community, now seen as a poor relation, with wages waaay down in the professional league tables.

The children themselves, when not coming from troubled homes are more aware than ever that, unlike the promises of yore, a better education does not necessarily lead to a prosperous life - in fact it may lead to a prematurely debt-ridden one. Should a well-pad job materialise, that too could vanish - either abroad or to shareholder-value.

[david_carnell]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> bignumber5 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Allow me to ask David and bignumber5 the same

> > question as you mention The Krays.

> > ..Chicago!..LOL

> David what do you think about that question I

> posed you?

Tony, I didn't answer your question because BN5 answered it well enough for me not to repeat what he said.

[muffintop]

Have to say that I believe it is the pure lack of fear of anyone in authority, kids know that not only will the Police do nothing, the teachers can do nothing, goodness even their own parents can't lay a hand on them without the threat of claims of abuse, (I am not one to condone physical punishment but the mere mention of a "good hiding" (whatever that was! although we knew it must be bad) was enough to keep us towing the line. If bullying was not so rife in the armed forces, I would even go as far as to suggest some kind of national service, for both males and females, obviously not to get sent to war, am against that, or some kind of outreach/outbounders courses to get back to nature and learn to rely and respect your fellow man/woman. All sounds like gobbeldygook I know and not feasible, but something needs to be done and soon, what kind of adults do you think these (and not generalising and saying all because there really are some fantastic teens out there, polite, helpful, thoughtful)children are going to grow into.

Alas, going on a course soon and won't be near a computer, wahhhhhh!

[missd]

i agree muffintop in terms of it is worrying what kind of adults these kids are going to turn into.

true the teaching profession is seen as a poor relation, however i still value education very highly - whether or not you come out of it with some debt. having one or two degrees means alot to me and as my dad used to say "no one can take that away from you" (bless him!)

yes you may come out of it with some debt and it doesn't guarantee a prosperous life, but it helps, and also provides a lot more than just the qualification -you get the living on your own, managing money, social life, people you meet etc

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dangerous, aggressive behaviour is nothing at all

> to do with poverty.

> Poverty was rife in the fifties, we were lucky to

> have a warm house, a decent hot meal and dry

> feet.> There were very few murders and/or stabbings

> although there was widespread poverty.>

> There was much better discipline and people seemed

> to have more pride/shame/standards.

> This controlled their behaviour as the neighbours

> would frown on the 'bad' family in the street.

> One year after I left school (1961) they stopped

> using the cane, and when I read about it in the

> local paper, I thought it was the beginning of the

> end........."

The Young Lady of 16 who has changed her life around said it succintly on TV nearly 2 weeks ago.Its MATERIALISM thats the problem these days combined with the Social and Socio-Economic problems.Many of the Parent(s) turn a blind eye as there is less presure on them to provide.

Stephen answer this honestly.How many children did you know, when growing up, have only one Parent?(obviously this does not include any bereavements)??...I can't think of ONE..NOT ONE...at School at Secondary Schol in my Council Estate which was enormous..any of my friends etc..these were just Working-Class Families.Some were ambitious-Some not..I realise(with hindsight that a proportion probably stayed together because of the Social "stigma" attached.)but these kids were given every chance as,usually,the Father was there to be a Role-Model and provide Emotional,Financial and Practical support to his Partner...Now its like a 100 yard race where some people including countless Whites nowadays are 20 yards behind the field at the start.That does NOT mean their goals are insurmountable or they can not get to the Winning Line but it does put them at an enormous disadvantage which some,admirably,overcome. All your points I agree with but its from the"Ministry of the bleedin' obvious" which some won't admit so the problem continues.

As a High-Ranking Female Officer said the other day the Gangs have become many kids "Family"...these kids want money QUICK-TIME! but,mostly with only some exceptions, want to study and go down the conventional route(legal) to earn this money but as the Girl also said these kids want the latest trainers NOW!

I posed the question why the most impoverished Community=The Bangla-Deshis commit little or no street crime if "Poverty" is such a Factor.Still not received a reply that answers that one.

The really sad thing?...I became unpopular on a Betting Forum for a while by saying that all those who want to sweep the truth under the carpet have "blood on their hands" but these Guys do not want to see that.They just hope that

1/The problem is just a phase and will go away and be reduced.IT WON'T unless something drastic like stiffer sentences is done and

2/ They or their kith and kin are not personally affected.

Quite ironic as my friend from Sierra Leone is due/was due(lol) at 9.30am and she is (effectively) bringing up her 2 children on her own and she is strong(!) won't take any nonsense and the kids who both under 5 are great individuals.Having said that she tells me(I can see this too) that the Boy loves coming round to play "rough 'n tumble"and Football and spends half the times with his arms around me.For a few hours I am his "surrogate" Father.If only he had his real one around:(

p.s Your memory is letting you down you old ***:).I got the cane in 1965 for only getting 23% in English Literature at the end of my 1st year exam when I was 11/12 !it still hurts now(or the memory does)Strangely enough LOL this converted me into an avid reader who gained Grade "A" in the "O" Level 5 years later:)must have been a co-incidence:)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

muffintop Wrote:All sounds like

> gobbeldygook .....on the contrary it all makes perfect sense to me:)

[SeanMacGabhann]

now now Tony, I did reply, albeit with a question. Did I miss the answer (apologies if so)

Banghladeshi community predominantly in Tower Hamlets. Tower Hamlets not know for it's safe streets

[mockney piers]

There were plenty of teachers at my old school who commanded respect, even among the most troubled/troublesome kids, without recourse to a cane.

I suspected things would go downhill in education when, during my final year, most of those senior staff wre 'encouraged' to take early retirement and the savings went to pay for a whole bunch of fresh-faced teachers who were of course absolutely saveaged by the above kids.

I can well believe that, without the guidance of such experienced teaching professionals, they're only just becoming good seasoned teachers (17 years later).

I'd laugh if they were encouraged to take early retirement to pay for.........

[PeckhamRose]

Well, Marmora Man, if only.

I have been given a questionnaire (perhaps along with all regular people who take part in the Ward Police Panels?) to gauge my opinion on policing. The questionnaire addressed from Ian Blair tells me what the targets are, and tells me what will happen in all areas of policing when the need arises. Example, someone will visit after a burglary has been reported within so many hours or months or something.

The questions are basically along the lines of, "Are these points easy to understand" and "Do you have any other points to make?"

Oh yessss, and oh so very yesssssss....

Marmora Man Wrote:

> Policing (in the broadest sense) depends upon

> community agreement - we agree (or grow up with

> and imbibe with mother's milk) certain norms of

> behaviour and we empower others (uniformed police,

> community leaders, the older and more wiser etc)

> to enforce those norms.

[bignumber5]

the Police do nothing... I would even go as far as to suggest some kind of national service

We've got a cross-thread type situation, Arming the Police and National Service are getting some attention here

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sean:Following the maxim "No news is good news"...I know quite a few East London Cock-er-nee Sparra's from near that neck of the woods and they have never commentated on any undue problems.Certainly none of the 44 London Teenage Murders since Jan.2007 involve them in any way.No community is perfect but they seem fine,in general.

Without sounding like an old record but it really is Materalism combined with all the social problems that we are all aware of...When we had real poverty in this Country(The Depression/Jarrow Marches/Rationing)...there was none of this nonsense but we did not have the "materialism" Factor either!..or Global pictues showing us what is available!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Tony, leaving aside Tower Hamlets for a while then, I probably agree with the general linking of materialism to unrest. There is a bigger discussion to be had about THAT subject mind you and I don't have the time at the moment but as we agree on something I thought I'd seize the opportunity!

All that said, are we not East Dulwich specific anymore and isn't this thread Lounge-bound Mr Admin?

[Administrator]

Lounged

[jumpinjourno]

-- moved topic --

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:> Tony, leaving aside Tower Hamlets for a while

> then, I probably agree with the general linking of

> materialism to unrest. and I don't have the time at the moment but as we

> agree on something I thought I'd seize the

> opportunity!

>

> Agree??!!! Steady Old Son:)...Lets take it one step at a time M8..No rush or pressure:)

...Off for a few hours back to London now(fancy a trip on The Docklands Railway to start proceedings).

See You Later:)

[SteveT]

Tony.London Suburbs wrote:-

Stephen answer this honestly.How many children did you know, when growing up, have only one Parent?

Err me actually.

My parents were divorced when I was 2 years of age.

The divorce made the headlines of the local evening paper (1948) for 3 nights running.

There was an obvious shortage of low-life stabbings, and murders at the time, to take the heat off, even they must have been on 'rations'.;-)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SteveT Wrote:

- Stephen answer this honestly.How many children did

> you know, when growing up, have only one Parent?>

> Err me actually.

> My parents were divorced when I was 2 years of

> age.>

> The divorce made the headlines of the local

> evening paper (1948) for 3 nights running.

AN ALMIGHTY LOL!..What a great answer:)..Made the headlines for 3 days!:)...What a contrast...Todays headline Peter and Petra celebrate 2 months of wedded bliss-who said it wouldn't last...:)

There is no doubt in my mind that a Woman(invariably) left on her own to bring up her offspring,having to work all hours and by definition only there for the children,occassionally,when she is exhausted from a full days work and maybe much more,with no Male (direct) support has the most difficult job in the World...The kids must be at a great disadvantage over a child coming from 2 parents(particularly if one stays at home or,maybe,works part-time.

[citizenED]

Changes for the better sometimes come at a price and the increasing freedom in society, the increasingly equal treatment of women and ethnic minorities, the acknowledgement that children are human beings deserving of their own rights and the general move towards opportunity for all and social mobility, benefit us all. We have to manage the change and there is some fallout over it. Some impoverished, disenfranchised people often suffer from the increases in freedom but as sad and worrying as that is, it should not be used to halt the progress. Knee-jerk reactions regarding youth crime, suggestions that we go back to national service and the such like, are such a retrograde step. All suffer for the crimes of the few, without any guarantee that those solutions will work.

[clive3300]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Changes for the better sometimes come at a price

> and the increasing freedom in society, the

> increasingly equal treatment of women and ethnic

> minorities, the acknowledgement that children are

> human beings deserving of their own rights and the

> general move towards opportunity for all and

> social mobility, benefit us all. We have to manage

> the change and there is some fallout over it. Some

> impoverished, disenfranchised people often suffer

> from the increases in freedom but as sad and

> worrying as that is, it should not be used to halt

> the progress. Knee-jerk reactions regarding youth

> crime, suggestions that we go back to national

> service and the such like, are such a retrograde

> step. All suffer for the crimes of the few,

> without any guarantee that those solutions will

> work.

Smoothly written, but is it really knee-jerk that society draw a limit on some "freedoms"? I resent the apparent "freedom" of people to stab me or otherwise attack me. I am really, really not ok with it. In fact I am quite ok with them being severly punished for even attempting to kill those close to me, or innocent bystanders.

Writing them a nicely worded letter signed by a caring social worker saying we hope they dont abuse their freedoms in the future and wishing them to "be well" is not quite going to hack it a practical response.

[citizenED]

Totally agree with you, I hate that side-effect of the changes in society but the attempt to crack down on the whole population of young people with measures such as conscription is a regressive and counterproductive move.