Neighbour from hell - advice please!

[BecsBex]

Hi all,

So, I live in a lovely one-bed garden flat. I've been renting here since summer 2011. I live below a woman who can only be described as a miserable old bitch. I'm a very affable person and have done my best to be pleasant with her but from the moment we met (in our shared corridor) she has been nothing but rude. We have had a ridiculous ongoing issue with the shared side gate, which she was convinced I was locking her out of on purpose. In fact, when I moved in the estate agent (HAART) specifically told me that the upstairs flat did not use their garden and that the shared access wasn't an issue. Once the upstairs neighbour had made it clear that I was breaching her 'peaceful right to access' (what?) by locking the gate, I stopped locking the gate. However, the gate and frame are very old and the wood was warping badly which meant the lock kept getting stuck. The neighbour was convinced that I was locking the gate on purpose and kept knocking on my door to shout in my face about it (it is my conclusion that she is incapable of speaking and can only shout). On one occasion my boyfriend, who is generally a very pleasant chap, went outside to explain to her about the warping wood. He got as far as "hello, I -" before she launched into a diatribe of verbal abuse, threatening to call the police and have him arrested if he spoke to her again, accusing him of having a got at her "because [he's] a man", etc etc. She has threatened on several occasions to "get a man round to sort [me] out" and has also threatened my boyfriend with this. I reported this to Southwark Council using the antisocial behaviour form online but, surprise surprise, had no response. I then managed to convince my landlord to have the lock on the gate replaced and repositioned which has solved the problem of the gate sticking, plus I forked out myself to have a key cut for the beast upstairs because HAART would not provide a key for the new lock for the neighbour.

Apart from the fact that the woman upstairs is an absolute mentalist, she is also incredibly inconsiderate as a neighbour in general. The flats are not sound-proofed and she is incredibly heavy footed. I never hear her partner moving about but if she's home, I can hear her every step. The light fittings in my living room shake. It's all very 'fee fie foe fum'. She takes a roll-along with her to work every morning and rather than carry the bag down her stairs, she drags the bag down behind her so that it thuds on every step. I usually work night shifts and being woken up first thing in the morning by a giant pulling a suitcase is not one of my favourite things. On the occasions when we've had words, she's made a point of thudding around louder upstairs and throwing heavy things on the floor above me. She puts her washing machine on mid-week, usually a Tuesday and Wednesday, between midnight and 1am. Every week. She thuds about at all hours of the night and it frequently sounds like she's moving furniture around in the small hours of the morning. I'm talking 2/3am. I now sleep with earplugs in because it's the only way I can get some kip but I would prefer not to.

Her garden (which she must access by going through mine) is completely overgrown - the weeds are taller than I am and I can see that there is a fox den in there. The garden hasn't been used for YEARS. However, if the neighbour hears me using MY garden (which I do, a lot) she will make a point of coming downstairs and wandering through my garden to peer over her fence and pretend to be checking her weeds. She can't even open the gate to her garden because the thistles have completely blocked the path. My point is that she goes out of her way to try to make me uncomfortable with being in my own space by standing right in the middle of my garden while I'm out there, simply because she can.

The neighbour owns her flat and has done for about 20 years. I'm only renting mine. Can anyone advise on whether there's anything I can do about the noise problem, if not about the fact that she is an intimidating, nasty old cow? I've checked with Southwark Council but they can't do anything about the noise. Has anyone any experience with the Environmental Protection Act? I've also tried to record the sound of the spin cycle in the middle of the night but the sound quality was very poor on the recording as I was only using my phone.

To be honest, if I could afford to move then I would but I love my little flat and the rental prices have shot up since I moved here. I can barely afford the rent now and one-bed garden flats in ED are currently about ?175 a month more than I'm currently paying. That plus the money required for deposits, moving vans, etc etc means that I just can't afford to move at the moment and if I could, I would have to leave ED or settle for a much smaller flat.

The neighbour goes to Jamaica every summer for 2 months. During that time my flat is a really lovely place to be and I start to forget how horrible it is for the rest of the year. She's back now though and the ceilings are shaking again. I've had enough. It's all very unfair because I'm really nice and my neighbour is really NOT. Is there anything I can do? Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks :)

(Edited a typo)

[unlurked]

Ring the anti social behaviour people at Southwark-why accept not even receiving a responre to your email (probably got lost in system). Antisocial behaviour is the washing machine on so late, shouting etc. Report her to landlord-they have responsibilities to. Speak to her partner?

[alice]

Remove her name from your post

[BecsBex]

Sir, yes sir. The word is please. I have removed her name. Thanks for your help.

[womanofdulwich]

Under the terms of the lease of your flat( presume it is the landlord) there will be rules and regulations, and there should be similar ones for her flat. you need to contact your landlord- via the agent if necessary and get them to contact the freeholder to complain. there will ( or ahould)be rules like- maintain the garden, carpet the floors . YOur land lords lease will also show what rights of access there are to the garden via your garden/ side access etc.

[El Pibe]

I lived in a flat like that once on east dulwich grove, and life was pretty unbearable.

The only ultimate recourse to action we had was to move out. You're renting, it's a slight pain but worth it for sheer simple peace of mind.

[StraferJack]

what el pibe said

I've done it too - and once the hassle of the move is over (no small thing) you will wonder why you didn't do it sooner

Esp in this case where the neighbour is not going anywhere any time soon

(ps is it Louisa do you think? ;-) )

[Peckhampam]

My sympathies. A couple of thoughts. It won't help the noise from upstairs but it may make you less angry to realise that un-soundproofed floors make everything sound terrible and she may not be making the noises purposly to upset you. Firstly it is very hard for people to change the way they walk and if she has a heavy footfall she has a heavy footfall. I used to live below an enormous rugby player and his petite girlfriend, and it was her I could hear because of the way she walked which she could do nothing about. The smallest thing can be magnified-I once sat through an hour of a thudding on my ceiling and finally knocked on the door to ask them to stop-they were mystified and said they were doing nothing to make a noise. In fact they were ironing, using a wonky ironing board, and everytime it wobbled my ceiling thudded.

The above may help your blood pressure but not the noise, which I know is somehow very intrusive when from above. Would it be at all worthwhile asking your landlord if they would consider soundproofing? It can be done from your flat and helps enormously/

[TonyQuinn]

You have no other option but to move....why put yourself through this misery. It ain't going to get any better. Let Haart know what you've been through. Tell the owner of the flat you're renting what you've been through. This is the responsibility of Haart and owner of your flat.

[JohnL]

She is what she is

She's probably lonely - but just stop speaking - and don't answer the door to her.

The more rational and communicative you are the worse she will be - because she's lonely - ignore.

The soundproofing sounds terrible mind.

[chesterpuss81]

Hi

I feel for you, we've always lived below people and regardless of how considerate they are and lovely people you can never truly escape hearing them moving around, slamming doors etc, thundering up and down stairs. I don't think they realise quite how loud it is downstairs, however it does sound like your neighbour goes out of her way to be louder at times just to p!ss you off. It would drive me insane and it isn't fair.

Re. what others have said about your leases, I'm presuming that she is either leasehold or if your landlord and her share the freehold they'll have still given themselves leases and a standard resi long lease will, as other have said, have rules about carpeting floors and noise after 11pm.

Unfortunately the Environmental Protection Act isn't going to help you out here much, there is a section of that which deals with nuisance, however none of what your neighbour is doing is going to count as a nuisance, it wouldn't be worth your while even looking into it really which I know isn't what you want to hear!

[Twirly]

I agree with the others who have said that if you want a quieter life, you have to move - however unpleasant that may seem as an option at the moment. Even if you had soundproofing put in, that's not going to stop her peering over the fence or thumping down the stairs, and she isn't going to change her attitude, or do anything to repair the damage already done to your relationship. Although I can see how anti-social her behaviour has been, and how confrontational, she will probably be able to make it all sound quite reasonable should you get the authorities involved. As someone else has said, she can't help how she walks, she might argue that she can't lift the bag that she thumps down the stairs, and that she is perfectly within her rights to have her washing machine on whenever she likes...

We cannot make other people change, we can only change how we react to them/remove ourselves from their presence. Have a look at threads on here about other nice areas to live in, that are even becoming more popular than ED, and you might find yourself an even nicer flat with quieter neighbours (and maybe go for the one above your neighbours next time, just in case!). Good luck.

[i*Rate]

Interestingly, some years ago, we had some young guys renting the house next to us who had a full-size professional DJ system installed in the bedroom on the other side of the (9 inch) wall from us. When they go that blasting out at night the whole house shook and it was rather disturbing for us when we tried to get some sleep at the end of a working day.

Well, what to do - call Southwark. They told us to take lots of notes of when the noise happened and after some weeks of monitoring, maybe someone might call around (they never did). Next step - write to the estate agents renting out the house (Acorns on Lordship Lane) and explain exactly the problem, that should do the trick? No,that backfired a bit - we were told by them, that in fact our wind chime as the front of the house was disturbing their enjoyment of watching TV and we were in the wrong. You could'nt make it up, as they say!

In the end, we just knocked on the door one evening and shouted abuse at them - then they eventually moved out of their own accord, thank goodness.

Good luck and cheers.

[oimissus]

tbh, you don't sound that nice: naming her in your original post, your childish response to be pulled up on that, the fact that you keep calling her miserable old bitch, miserable old cow - what's her age got to do with it? Apart from possibly excusing the fact that she can't help the soundproofing, maybe can't sort out her own garden, maybe can't carry her shopper down the stairs, maybe is on a tariff which means her electricity is cheaper in the night and she can't afford to run the washing machine at other times.

Perhaps you start off by being a bit nicer to her, maybe offer to help her with her shopping or garden, invite her in for a cup of tea. Yes, at the end of the day she may still be a horrible person and moving may be the only option, but at least for you it is an option - it may not be for her.

One day you might be that elderly lady.

[Peckhampam]

oimissus...what a horrible star to your post. How can you say, about someone you know nothing about, "you don't sound that nice" Maybe you should keep that sort of opinion to yourself. Your post had some useful things to say but the beginning leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

[Penguin68]

Some at least of what has been described in the behaviour of your neighbour may be relevant to your categorisation of her as 'old' at least as regards e.g. suspicion, doing things at night/ odd hours - it is possible (if she really is that old) that she is suffering from early signs of dementia - that is to say that the behaviour you find difficult may be a function not of her being nasty or an unpleasant neighbour, but of her suffering from some impairment. That makes your life no more easy, of course, but it may change your view of her from being annoying to being sick.

It is not infrequent to find suspicion, and some forms of aggressiveness, associated with some types of mental impairement - this doesn't, as I have said, make it any more liveable with, but it may help your own response to the difficulties you face. Of course, if that is a correct diagnosis (which it may very well not be) - then things are not going to get better.

[davidh]

ignore peckhampam. she sounds pretty miserable herself.

you have suffered hell at the hands (feet) of your disgusting neighbour. the fact is that you will have to move. she isn't going to, so sadly it is you going. sooner the better, but give haart and the landlord a verbal and written kicking on the way out. you could, of course, superglue the key to her front door.... but that would be a rotten thing to do and should not be even considered. oh no. absolutely not

[Cora]

I am pretty sure the council have a mediation service to help work through these types of issues....phone and ask the environmental health people anti social unit about it.

[Jeremy]

One of the advantages of renting is that you can move with comparably little hassle. I'd exercise that advantage if I were you.

[oimissus]

Peckham - I wrote that because the OP ended her post saying that she was a nice person - in my book, anyone who clearly sees being old as a negative isn't. It makes horrible reading, 'miserable old bitch', and naming her, on a public forum?!! You think that's nice? Her post left a nasty taste in my mouth, however justified her grievance may be against her neighbour.

Her age may well be a reason, and even an excuse, for some of her behaviour, we don't know that - we don't know anything about her bar what the OP has written - yes, she may simply be awful; she may equally be an elderly, lonely, maybe frightened woman. But I can't stand this kind of ageist, nasty posting.

[BecsBex]

Thank you everyone for your advice.

oimissus and Penguin68 - she is not elderly. I refer to her as a miserable old bitch because she is an adult who behaves like a child and is completely unresponsive to politeness and courtesy. As I said in my original post, I tried for a long time (over a year) to be pleasant to her, smiled and said hello whenever we crossed paths and continued to be polite even after she sent me a ridiculous note threatening me with legal action regarding the shared access gate. I continued to be pleasant when she started coming into my garden for no reason when she knew I was outside doing things/generally enjoying my garden. As I said, she can only access her garden, which is at the rear of mine, by going THROUGH mine. Her garden is completely overgrown and she clearly has no desire to use it but she will pretend to need to do something down there when she knows I'm around. For example, a few months ago my friend and I were having a cup of tea in the garden. The upstairs neighbour made a point of appearing with her partner, stood about 5 feet away from us pointing out weeds and things in their own garden, then declared loudly to him, "YES, we will have to come and use the garden MORE OFTEN." My response was an overly-chirpy, "great!" to which the neighbour then told me to "f*ck off".

She is not elderly. I would say she's around 50/60 at a guess. She is able-bodied, I see her marching too and from the flat every day and have also spotted her carrying lots of shopping down the road. I frequently hear her running up and and down the stairs. She has no DESIRE to use her garden, so please don't accuse me of being insensitive and picking on an elderly woman who is too frail to weed her garden. I'm perfectly capable of identifying someone who has physical problems or issues with senility that mean they can't carry their bags or take care of foliage, and I wouldn't be attacking an elderly woman for that because I'm not a heartless so-and-so.

I am at the end of my tether with her now, having put up with her behaviour for 2 years. I have given up being polite about her since she started threatening to get a man round to sort me out, and verbally abusing my boyfriend for absolutely no reason. I think that gives me the right to call her a miserable old bitch. And by 'old' I mean OLD ENOUGH TO KNOW BETTER AND BEHAVE LIKE A DECENT HUMAN BEING. Sorry that you've decided to take offense and conclude that I'm the problem.

Everyone else, thank you again for your advice. I've received some very nice PMs as well which I'll try to reply to today. At this point, yes, it does look like my only option is to move out. As I said, I won't be able to afford a similar property in this area anymore and it makes me really angry to think that a miserable cow gets to drive someone out of their home, even the area. I have no desire to live in another part of London. I moved here from Guildford two years ago and it took me a long time to feel at home here, which I now do. If I have to move out of ED then I will move out of London altogether. Hooray, the horrible neighbour wins.

[Huggers]

She sounds like she has a personality disorder and is beyond negotiation.

However-

can you get landlord to fence the access path so that she is separated from you in her journey to her garden? my friends did this in a previously unfenced garden. It could be offered as an action to protect HER privacy.

Ignore her when she is in her garden, invite people over, sunbathe....it's possible she is a narcissist enjoying the attention.

[LondonMix]

She sounds dreadful. I've only met one person like that before. She took pleasure in making other people unhappy (she was in her 20s). I agree ignoring her and not letting her see that her behaviour is winding you up is probably the only thing that will make it abate.

Agree with the garden access solution the other poster describes.

[Tommy1000]

Sounds awful. It's bad enough living below (for example) a pleasant neighbour with a heavy foot, let alone someone who - based on what you describe - is going out of their way to disturb you. She may well have a personality disorder. She may just be a nasty piece of work.

Given that your neighbour most likely does not have dementia, I wouldn't take much notice of anyone stepping up as your neighbour's apologist. Considering what you're putting up with, I would say that your first post is remarkably measured. It would be bad enough if it was just passive-aggressive behaviour you were contending with, but it sounds way past that.

There are a number of areas you could look at:

- I wouldn't let the council take no responsibility and would push them again. Late night operation of domestic applicances is explicitly listed on their website:

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/412/noise_problems/377/be_a_considerate_neighbour/1

This is also common sense / decency, which is certainly not trumped by someone looking to save a few pennies on their electricity bill (what a bizarre excuse to offer on your neighbour's behalf).

- The aggressive behaviour: if you receive any kind of threat from your neghbour again (thinly-veiled or not) consider calling the police. If you receive anything at all along the lines of 'getting someone round to sort you out' then certainly call the police (perhaps on the 101 number).

- I don't have any direct experience with the EPA, and chesterpuss may be correct, but on a first reading of what it's intended to cover ('unreasonable interference with the use and enjoyment of one?s property') I perhaps wouldn't be so categoric that it will not offer you any assistance.

- Tort of (private) nuisance. i think it unlikely that you'd ever go down this route, however, it's certainly something you could bring to their attention (say, for example, if you ever document all of your grievances in a letter also setting out what action you may take should they not stop doing those unreasonable things which are disturbing you).

- Keep a written record of everything: noise (uses of washing machine late night etc), altercations etc.

- Have a look at the forums on this site: http://www.noisyneighbours.net/

You may find some useful strategies.

Good luck.

[KidKruger]

I would speak to your landlord and say you need support, you could suggest that the landlord may have a high tenant turnover until this situation is fixed.