Flat conversion - Kelmore Grove

[cicelyl]

I got notice of another conversion of a family home on Kelmore Grove into two 2 bed flats. The street has some lovely family homes on it, but it seems the trend is to turn the street into more flats rather then keep it orientated towards families. I want to object to the development. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks

[jaybee82]

The only reason they're turned into flats is that the large proportion of people can't afford a family house in SE22, especially in the current financial climate. Also, London isn't getting any bigger. It's a sad reality, but something tells me more conversions in the area are inevitable.

[AcedOut]

What number? Kelmore has some beautiful houses. The last one sold for ?690k last May, although the latest offer is at ?590k.

[Bellenden Belle]

Cicelyl,

I do think you will find that many very nice families bring up lovely children in (gasp) flats. If as Acedout suggests, houses are selling in the street for ?690K, then many families will even struggle to afford a converted flat.

I wonder why it bothers you? I can see increased pressure on parking - sure - but I'm interested in what your concerns are?

[AcedOut]

Correction - ?680k

[hoipolloi]

It's number 11. Our garden backs on to its garden and my first reaction was negative too but actually the house has been empty for a while, is in a very sad-looking state and it will be nice to see it smartened up and lived in again.

[AcedOut]

Is it on the market, or recently sold? I'd be keen to look at making an offer as a house (in its current state) and keeping it as a house...

PM me if anyone knows any details please.

[cicelyl]

Maybe it is just my negative experience with flats on the street....last night I looked out at the top floor flat accross the road and was delighted to see a porn playing on a giant screen TV. Also, more likely than not to get people without children, people who are younger, have two living rooms in the same building so more noise from multiple TVs and music etc and then parking. Could get up to 4 extra cars on the street. We live right next to the house so will be impacted by the increased level of noise and activity. It seems a shame as family houses are in short supply, 2 bed flats don't seem to be. They are putting them in all over ED, including 8 in one building on Barry Road. There are a lot of flats on the street already and this will likely push the single family homes into a minority on the street. It also seems that people would be interested in purchasing this as a single family house.

[Diescu]

I live in a converted flat with my 13-year old daughter - do we count as a family? Joking aside I do know what cicelyl means as a couple of years ago the council approved two conversions on my road: one from a 2-flat conversion to a 3-flat conversion and one from a house to a 3-flat conversion (one opposite and one next door to me). The council quashed my objection about overcrowding and potential traffic parking issues; I suppose regeneration is their priority at the end of the day. Unfortunately you can't complain about a general lowering of the tone which is what I suppose we all fear when developers move in, I know I did (despite being a conversion dweller myself). Two years later, the various flats are occupied by generally nice occupants, who though not families are mainly nice singles and couples who enhance the neighbourhood in their own small way. Having said that the latest batch next door to me downstairs have a rather noisy TV that they often seem to watch with the back door open - no porn though, mercifully!

[cicelyl]

Yes I am pretty depressed about my actually being able to do anything about this. The council would happily see the entire ED converted into flats. More council tax for them! However I will try. Someone needs to fight to ensure the community remains geared towards families (and yes I get the point that one family can live in a 2 bed flat, but most families are larger and will want more space). Frankly, what good affordable family neighbourhoods are left near central london! Not many. And house prices will decline, so the current equivalent house which is on the market for ?590 (the house that sold for ?680 last may was a much larger type of house accross the road) will go down even more, making the neighbourhood more affordable.

[AcedOut]

The house now at ?590k was previously on offer at ?650k though! But yes, it's a 4 bed and not of the large 5-bed variety.

I can't anyone offering anything over ?500k to be honest, but we'll see....

[BlueOne]

As as single 45 year old public sector worker (and a 'professional' actually) I have never been able to afford to buy my own house and unless some fairytale windfall happens I never will. But I want to live a comfortable life and my desire to make my home clean and safe and pleasant is as strong as anyone else's! Although I am not living in a flat at the moment, I will be again very soon. I am actually offended by the assumption that I am somehow a second class citizen due to the necessity of living in a flat!

Believe it or not in London not everyone is part of a family. Surely flat dwellers have as much right to live in any street in any nice area as families? I think you need to address your assumptions cicelyl. I cannot believe you assume that living in a flat seems to equal undesirable antisocial behaviour. Believe it or not, there is a whole swathe of society who are perfectly decent people despite not having a spare ?600k to buy a 'family home'.

Or should we create some sort of reservation where all non-family people can be coralled to watch porn on giant screen televisons and make excessive noise together? Somewhere that is not ED I am guessing?

Also - "increased levels of noise and activity"? Perhaps the flat dwellers are inconvenienced by the increased noise created by families? And in my experience of East Dulwich, it is not the flat dwelling non-family types who clog nthe streets with cars. Check out the BMW estates and 4x4s that clog the streets around here.

I feel saddened by your post.

[/pre]

[BlueOne]

and furthermore:

"Someone needs to fight to ensure the community remains geared towards families"

Why exactly?

[cicelyl]

I didn't mean to offend anyone. I understand perfectly that not everyone can afford a to rent or buy a house. As a double income household we struggle to afford our current house. My point is that decisions to take a street with houses and convert them into 1 and 2 bed flats changes the make-up of the neighbouhood. There is no doubt about it. It attracts a different crowd. Less likely to have families with 2 plus children. I am not saying that having or not having children makes one a better or worse person! It simply means a different atmosphere. When I was a child I could run accross the street and play with lots of children my age who lived on my street. With an ever increasing number of houses in my area becoming flats there is less likely to be families around. My point was what is wrong with keeping it as a single family house and renting it out to a larger family? Why does every rental have to end up being split into flats. The majority are already flats....why not keep a few houses so people with mulitple children have some good choices. As someone who doesn't even own a car I can't comment on the 4x4s but I can say that I am not a fan (to put it mildly).

[myrmidon]

Porn on someone's TV, in the privacy of their own home? Heaven forbid

Sounds like there is a touch of 'Rear Window' style goings on in Kelmore Grove.

[dc]

Are you sure it wasn't Hollyoaks?

[xone262]

i guess it's a shame to see more loss of houses and decent victorian ones at that when there are so many purpose built flats available. I don't really go with the whole affordability thing. Unfortunately if areas are too pricey sometimes you have to look at moving to more affordable areas and work up from there.

[kilmore]

I'm also debating whether to object. The Council has a policy to resist the split of houses into flats especially in the conservation area, and there's no doubt that it does change the character of the street. Most of us probably lived in flats once so there's no stigma, it's just that there are loads of existing conversions and new flats in the area, and it seems better to keep the houses in single occupation as they were built -that's an aspect of conservation. Conversion often involves rather unsympathetic alteration, although having said that the house in question has been run down for years and needs everything doing to it. Car parking is an issue too - I don't want a CPZ. But I welcome the mix of families (so long as the children are well behaved!). They are great houses, comfortably sized for couples and sharers as well as those with children, though the gardens are a bit small.

[thebeard]

The Government (and the general population i.e. You and I) are behind Brown field redevelopment, which includes conversion of houses into flats.

If one thinks about it it does make a lot of sense one house converted into 2 2 bed or 1 2 bed and 2 1 beds etc is a far better use of available space than its use as one house.

The immediate and expected future demand is for more units not bigger units Families are getting smaller not bigger, and the need for three bed properties is getting lower.

Loss of Parking is not a factor as the government is happy for a move away from cars to public transport bicycles etc

All Councils have a size standard, which is set to retain family homes; houses less than a certain size are refused conversion.

The Government has also increased the requirement for sound proofing which means that any houses converted into flats today are far for better in terms of sound transfer than the old conversions of the 60?s and 70?s which most of use are familiar with.

Overall conversion of Large houses into flats make a lot of sense for the above reasons together with the environmental reasons (new build rather than conversion creates huge amounts of Co2 due to concrete for foundations etc etc) conversion is far more environmentally friendly.

NIMBY?ism and a lack of understanding is causing delays in the planning system which is causing all of us by delaying the process and so adding to the overall cost of housing.

Being in a conservation area makes little difference as the same rules tend to apply it?s probably in all our interests that the process is allowed to proceed as rapidly a possible so the general population sees the benefits of higher quality sustainable homes.

This is the downside of living in one of the world?s most popular Cities, which has a growing population.

[Jeremy]

Wonder what made you drag up this old thread?

I agree to an extent, of course it makes sense to convert some houses into flats, in accordance with demand in the area. But I am not convinced that the need for houses is declining, particularly not in this area.

And your comment about parking is rather naive... I'm sure the government are happy for people to move away from cars, but plenty of people still seem attached to their cars (I wouldn't give mine up).

[thebeard]

I was just looking at the forum for flat conversions and this thread came up.

With the parking what most of us forget is that the council own the parking spaces out on the road the only way to guarantee a parking space is to have off street parking.

I?m very attached to my car too.

I thought some of the comments regarding conversions were rather Na?ve.

As I mentioned the Council do have a limit on size, which is set to save family homes only houses which are bigger are allowed conversion.

[AllforNun]

yes, experience says this : you will get ignored, parking will become even worse and you will get double the amount of bins and recycling boxes in your street ! enjoy

[Marmora Man]

Conversion's go both ways - tho' the trend is toward flats. I converted a 3 flat house into a proper 4 bed house with ground floor flat for elderly parents-in-law. Worked well for 5 years, but now we have to decide what to do with an empty ground floor flat. Teenage sos eying it up as potential party space, I'm more inclined to let it Mon - Fri to someone working in London but with home in the distant country.

[thebeard]

The intensity of housing in London is far lower than in many other European cities mostly due to poor historical planning the tens of thousand Victorian terrace houses, which we all enjoy, are incredible inefficient use of land.

Paris as an example benefits from The Haussmann Renovations commissioned by Napoleon III carried out by Haussmann between 1852 and 1870.

Haussmann created a layout and more intense use of land whilst still making an incredibly beautiful city though it lacks the open spaces and gardens we enjoy in London.

I find it amusing that Londoners complain of overcrowding, its complete nonsense!

If new developments on Brown field sites were set out in the Haussmann courtyard style we would have a far better use of land that together with underground parking below such U shaped layouts would be a better way forward.

Unfortunately no Body or Developer will go this route because the planning system is not favourable or requiring this type of development.

Meanwhile we need to make the best of what we have. Which is why the government has changed the planning allowances (not far enough or well enough in may opinions).

The number of 4 and 5 bed houses occupied by just one or two people where conversion would allow three to nine people to live would go a long way to increasing sustainable use of the houses we already have.

Bins and parking are the least of our worries, good quality suitable housing are of far more importance.

Especially when we in London (even after this brown field development) will still enjoy excellent open spaces and gardens, which would not be affected by such development.

[AllforNun]

"The number of 4 and 5 bed houses occupied by just one or two people where conversion would allow three to nine people to live would go a long way to increasing sustainable use of the houses we already have. "

What an absolute blinkered, unrealistic, narrowminded, shortsighted, stuck at a computer generating building plans veiw of society you have, shave that beard off and engage with the outside world. I would like a decent social fabric, not a industrial zone crammed with people.

Also with regard to a 'conversion' could you please tell me how you would solve, and bear in mind you would become an overnight millionare, the problem of noise insulation which was obviously not something the 'victorians' had to consider.

Bins and parking should be a worry, how far do you move the line ?