New Laws to force motorists to consider cycle and pedestrian safety needed urgently

[titch juicy]

Driving lessons teach motorists that driving defensively is safe. Most motorists stick to this. Cyclists don't have lessons and most cyclists Drive aggressively making it more difficult for motorists to predict their actions and making driving more difficult (and antagonising pedestrians).

I am a driver but don't own a car. About twice a year I hire one to go away and each time I notice how much more difficult it has become to drive in London because of incosiderate and aggressive cyclists.

[titch juicy]

For those cyclists on here too lazy to click on the TFL link- here is their advice. Heed it, it's more likely to save your life than anything else.

"We want cyclists to stay safe when cycling near large vehicles, especially lorries. The safety advice is simple, 'stay safe, stay back'.

Lorries have significant areas around them where cyclists are difficult to see by the driver. Our aim is to reduce the number of cycling casualties caused by cyclist and HGV collisions.

The 'stay safe, stay back' advice applies to cyclists when cycling near to a moving lorry or approaching any stationary Heavy Goods Vehicle (HGV) on the road, at junctions, traffic lights or in slow moving traffic. It's important to get into a position where the lorry driver can see you.

Follow our tips below to find out how to protect yourself.

Safety tips

Cycle sensibly and assertively to help yourself stay safe, especially at traffic lights and junctions.

Recognise that lorry drivers may not be able to see you

Never cycle up the left side of a lorry stopped at a junction

Look out for lorries turning left from beside or behind you

Don't stop too close to the front of a stopped lorry and stay away from the lorry's front near side. If a lorry comes up behind you, move forward enough to ensure you are in the driver's field of vision

Take up a visible position at lights or advanced stop lines: three metres out in front and not by the left kerb or very close to the lorry

Behind a lorry is often the safest place to be. When you need to overtake a large lorry, do so on the right-hand side, so that the driver can see you

Be aware

The areas of risk can be the full length of the lorry, with the driver unable to see anyone cycling beside them on the left.

Both new and experienced cyclists have been killed in collisions with lorries. This often happens when a lorry turns left, hitting a cyclist on the nearside, or when cyclists stop too close to the front of a stopped lorry.

Don't assume a large gap between lorry and kerb is safe. When turning left, large lorries always move over to the right before they swing sharply across to turn.

Don't risk your life by trying to pass lorries on the left hand side when they are stopped at junctions or are about to turn.

Exchanging Places events

At Exchanging Places, you can climb into the cab of a lorry and watch for a police cyclist riding up the left side of the vehicle. You'll be surprised by just how little you can see from the driver's seat. You'll also learn more generally about how to cycle safely in London."

[henryb]

> Find me a single example of a long vehicle driver

> successfully prosecuted for killing a cyclist

> simply for not seeing them in their blind spot.

Yes you are right - most escape justice. It is a disgrace and these people need to be locked up or at least get life bans.

http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2012/06/another-hgv-driver-in-cyclist-death-crash-escapes-prosecution.html

[titch juicy]

No, they don't.

Education is the answer, not knee jerk hysteria.

Read that professional advice from TFL, perhaps share it round the cycling community and do something constructive to help save lives on the roads.

[henryb]

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> Driving lessons teach motorists that driving

> defensively is safe. Most motorists stick to this.

85% of cyclists also have a driving licence. And how does fit with your view? Is it just the 15% you are complaining about or is it that your statement clearly indicates you have a bigoted and prejudiced view of cyclists and the risks they pose to others.

On average 50% of car drivers break the speed limit on 30mph zones much more in 20mph zones. What do you propose we do about them?

[LadyDeliah]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> I personally reckon at least 3/4 of cycling deaths

> could have been avoided if the cyclists use more

> common sense.

So do you have any data to back up your personal opinion then?

[pps]

if people want to use the roads on a cycle then they should be made to take lessons .i have seen nearly all cyclists riding without due care and attention.resulting in either a car knocking them off their bike because they have tried to undertake a car that is about to turn left or ot judging a gap right and knocking off someones door mirror and then just riding off. yes change laws yes make roads safer for cyclists ,but then make them pay to use the roads and have insurance too for the damage they cause to peoples cars .people or moaning about car drivers, without them their be no roads to ride a bike on as the money the car user pays for car tax is used to repair and manage the raods.. infact the country is paid for by car owners smokers and drinkers .i have lost count of how many times i have nearly been hit by a cyclist when coming out of my gate.. ..it is impossible to have an accident if you are doing what you should be doing .shame these days you have to do the thinking for other road users.

[titch juicy]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I personally reckon at least 3/4 of cycling

> deaths

> > could have been avoided if the cyclists use

> more

> > common sense.

>

>

> So do you have any data to back up your personal

> opinion then?

None whatsoever, which is why I said "I personally reckon" and not "It's indisputable fact". But it's a reasoned opinion based on my own experience on the roads and the many reported cycling deaths that involve cyclists riding up the inside of long vehicles at junctions.

[titch juicy]

henryb Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Driving lessons teach motorists that driving

> > defensively is safe. Most motorists stick to

> this.

>

> 85% of cyclists also have a driving licence. And

> how does fit with your view? Is it just the 15%

> you are complaining about or is it that your

> statement clearly indicates you have a bigoted and

> prejudiced view of cyclists and the risks they

> pose to others.

>

> On average 50% of car drivers break the speed

> limit on 30mph zones much more in 20mph zones.

> What do you propose we do about them?

I don't see your point. Where in this thread have I said anything about cyclists posing a risk to others. To themselves for sure, and antagonising others yes.

And because a driver will drive considerately in a car, why does it necessarily follow that they'll behave considerately when they're on a bike? If anything, them being a cyclist will make them behave more considerately when they get in a car as they know the danger a car poses to cyclists. It's also quite reasonable to assume that once they get on a bike it gives them more a sense of freedom that a car gives and because everyone else does it they'll weave in and out of traffic, cutting cars up and jumping red lights.

[Horsebox]

pps Wrote:

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> if people want to use the roads on a cycle then

> they should be made to take lessons .i have seen

> nearly all cyclists riding without due care and

> attention.resulting in either a car knocking them

> off their bike because they have tried to

> undertake a car that is about to turn left or ot

> judging a gap right and knocking off someones door

> mirror and then just riding off. yes change laws

> yes make roads safer for cyclists ,but then make

> them pay to use the roads and have insurance too

> for the damage they cause to peoples cars .people

> or moaning about car drivers, without them their

> be no roads to ride a bike on as the money the car

> user pays for car tax is used to repair and manage

> the raods.. infact the country is paid for by car

> owners smokers and drinkers .i have lost count of

> how many times i have nearly been hit by a cyclist

> when coming out of my gate.. ..it is impossible to

> have an accident if you are doing what you should

> be doing .shame these days you have to do the

> thinking for other road users.

I can't work out if you're a troll or just really stupid.

[titch juicy]

It's important I make something clear. I am absolutely not anti-cycling or bigoted towards cyclists. Very much the opposite. As I've stated many times I'm a cyclist both for commuting and pleasure.

I'm very much opposed to bad cycling behaviour. It's getting worse while motorists attitudes are getting better. I think it's very important to recognise this as the media and a section of cyclists seem hellbent on putting all blame for any cycling problems on motorists and motorised vehicles and refusing to take ANY responsibility for their own actions.

I would love for London to become like Amsterdam- it won't for a myriad of reasons. But imagine a city where most people got around on bikes. How much healthier, physically and mentally, everyone would be, how much faster people could get around and how much better the air would be.

Fact is, that won't happen because of the way London works. So we all have to share the roads and we all have a responsibility to behave considerately. And what I see everyday is drivers getting better while cyclists get worse.

[LadyDeliah]

Truck driver who killed a 13 year girl, gets 6 months for dangerous driving and attempting to pervert the course of justice after deleting the text messages he'd been sending while travelling at speeds of up to 55 mph. This he did while his victim lay dying under his truck.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/hope-fennells-killer-driver-jailed-5849881

Anyone still think new tougher laws are not necessary?

[LadyDeliah]

Ok titch, your opinion is that car drivers are getting better, my experience is the opposite.

Now what?

[Louisa]

LadyD, I have read the news articles you have supplied and its deeply saddening to think such a young life could be taken in this way and I agree action does need to be taken against anyone causing danger to others on our roads. However, as pointed out in one of the news articles, trucks/lorries appear to account for more of the deaths on Londons roads than do car drivers - by quite a margin. The larger the vehicle, the more potential to be dangerous in the wrong hands. Car users and motorcyclists are just as much at risk from lorries on our roads, as cyclists are from cars. Unfortunately, London is an old city with a lot of narrow roads where numerous forms of transport compete for space, and it is a risky business navigating around this city. We all choose how to get around, and some of us will unavoidably be more at risk than others when using these different modes of transportation on such narrow roads.

Louisa.

[LadyDeliah]

Louisa, you are right, but I don't believe we should just accept the status quo. The laws need to be changed to reflect the relative danger of each mode of transport, be it to pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists car drivers etc, in an attempt to minimise the risks and give equal access to our thoroughfares (paid for by us all) to all of the public.

The current rules and road systems were designed mainly for the convenience and to meet the needs of, motorists, not pedestrians or cyclists. This has led to them being inadequate for the needs of pedestrians and cyclists, reflected by the high number of deaths and serious injuries in these vulnerable groups.

Cycling is set to increase as a mode of transport so unless we want to see a corresponding increase in cyclist deaths, there needs to be an urgent rethink of how we share our thoroughfares, including suitably deterrent punishments for those who cause death and / or serious injury to other users.

[LadyDeliah]

By the way, I agree that free cycling proficiency classes should be available to anyone who wants to attend them, but this is not a substitute for dealing with the systemic flaws in our current rules and transport infastructure.

[titch juicy]

Lady Delilah- that's an hideous, but isolated example. And yes, 6 months seems ridiculously lenient.

It doesn't alter my point though- that cyclists need to take more responsibility for their own safety. As the majority of cyclist deaths at the hands of long vehicles aren't due to that kind of incident.

[LadyDeliah]

Being in the left of left turning vehicles is also a result of idiot planners putting cycle lanes in the left of the traffic, without a barrier or cycle friendly light phasing. Follow the cycle path, get mown down, go from the left to the right at junctions and be accused of weaving in and out of the traffic.

It's badly planned roads and inadequate laws to blame, not victims' behaviour, brought about through systemic flaws.

[malumbu]

Motorist's behaviour getting better and cyclists getting worse??

My totally unscientific views based on observation and experiences is the opposite.

But firstly the vast majority of both are fine (I have more problems with pedestrians now...)

And I am just as angry at a cyclist texting on the move as a motorist.

I think it is engrained in our culture that we have a right to go as fast as we can when driving, with many of us not bothering to read the road and anticipate. WTF are you accelerating towards stationary traffic? And do any of you motorists really know how to go over a speedbump? Back off the accelerator before, and accelerate slightly when going over it. Don't use the brake (as I almost cycle into yet another car braking harshly going down undehill road.

Perhaps I am just more aware of the accelerating motorist than I was in the past, and at least this gives me a little more warning that they are less likely to give me space. In our boxes we just seem to be more insulated that those on two wheels (and I also rode motorbikes for years).

I think much of the hysteria is simply because there are just simply far more cyclists (sadly some are the nutters that people go on about).

Going back to my motorbiking days, there is an intersting training parallel. I'd cycled since a kid and had a car license for a few years, so why did I need motorcycle training? In the good old days there was non-compulsory local authority courses, run by local motorcycle groups and properly accredited (think it was RAC/ACU). That was before successive administrations buggered up the motorbike test - what I did was the better and more cost effective. The course helped me appreciate positioning, reducing my vulnerability and even the importance of the old fashioned hand signal, as that makes you look over your shoulder. Something never forgotten now the cycle is my main form of transport. Investment in this sort of thing for young, and not so young cyclists, may not be a bad thing. Oh and I also liked going into a HGV cab - wow!

So back to my source, a few accidents, far too many near misses, most not my fault, some my fault, close shaves with bikes when a pedestrian (one my fault, and one I had a go at the cylist as he was coming through on the inside at speed by a station), my own near misses with pedestrians as a cyclist, and sad to say some near misses as a driver with cyclists as well (again sometime my own fault, which is really sobering).

There's also lots about poor design of London streets for cyclists, but others have picked this up already.

[titch juicy]

"Being in the left of left turning vehicles is also a result of idiot planners putting cycle lanes in the left of the traffic, without a barrier or cycle friendly light phasing. Follow the cycle path, get mown down, go from the left to the right at junctions and be accused of weaving in and out of the traffic."

Sit behind the large vehicle until it's turned- don't get mown down.

But I agree, it's not ideal.

Malumbu- I meant drivers behaviour towards cyclists is improving. Sorry, I should have worded it better.

[ruffers]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Being in the left of left turning vehicles is also

> a result of idiot planners putting cycle lanes in

> the left of the traffic, without a barrier or

> cycle friendly light phasing. Follow the cycle

> path, get mown down, go from the left to the right

> at junctions and be accused of weaving in and out

> of the traffic.

>

> It's badly planned roads and inadequate laws to

> blame, not victims' behaviour, brought about

> through systemic flaws.

This is where you kind of lose me, cyclists as all road users need to take responsibility for their own actions. I cycle but my daily commute is by motorcycle and I will never, ever, go up the inside of an artic at a junction regardless of road markings or how any vehicle is indicating.

[titch juicy]

I was beginning to think I was the only sanity without a death wish :-)

[woodrot]

ruffers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LadyDeliah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Being in the left of left turning vehicles is

> also

> > a result of idiot planners putting cycle lanes

> in

> > the left of the traffic, without a barrier or

> > cycle friendly light phasing. Follow the cycle

> > path, get mown down, go from the left to the

> right

> > at junctions and be accused of weaving in and

> out

> > of the traffic.

> >

> > It's badly planned roads and inadequate laws to

> > blame, not victims' behaviour, brought about

> > through systemic flaws.

>

> This is where you kind of lose me, cyclists as all

> road users need to take responsibility for their

> own actions. I cycle but my daily commute is by

> motorcycle and I will never, ever, go up the

> inside of an artic at a junction regardless of

> road markings or how any vehicle is indicating.

it has taken a grimly bloody century for bikers to generally appreciate how vunerable they are with regard to other road users- and I think thats quite telling in itself.Riding defensively on a motorbike is a survival technique that is ( usually ) ingrained these days. Cyclists have been around for longer but probabaly not in the volumes we see today in lundun ,specially with the crowded roads they have to deal with.Both Cyclists and Drivers have a steep learning curve to take onboard.

[LadyDeliah]

Ok, so let me get this right. Cyclists who follow the road markings set out for them are blameworthy as are cyclists who do their own thing in the name of self-preservation?

Phew, there we have it. No need to look at ways to exert more control over the lethal lumps of metal being driven on our roads then, it's all down to the cyclists anyway.

Not sure about the pedestrians killed, but maybe they are to blame for not dodging out of the way quickly enough to escape being mowed down.

[henryb]

titch juicy Wrote:

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> I was beginning to think I was the only sanity

> without a death wish :-)

I don't think anyone was saying that cyclists don't have responsibility for their own safety or that the dangers of cycling in blind spots shouldn't be better communicated.

The problem with your view is doesn't seem to take account of the fact that cyclists already are the safest road users in terms in of being at fault in collisions.

And secondly it is blaming the victim. Can you imagine if - every single time they was discussion about a rape someone would pipe up that women need to take more responsibility for their safety and not wear such provocative clothes and nothing more needs until that happens? Or that every single time there was discussion about a teenager dying in a knife attack someone would pipe up that teenagers need to take more responsibility for their safety and wear stab jacket and not go out at night and the police shouldn?t do anything until that happens?

Can imagine how offensive that would be to the victims family and how frustrating it would be to anyone wanting to make the streets safer?