SUVs - “An Epidemic”

[jazzer]

I've edited this to make it clearer as to what I mean, if a person gets hit by one of those SUV type vehicles 

i) you're not getting up

ii) you're unlikely to see much of that day or any other day ever

iii) you're most likely to end up in a box.

Sorry to be so blunt, but having seen the size of those things and the front ends are huge death is the likely outcome

Finally we agree on something!!

Edited March 26 by jazzer

[malumbu]

In collisions between vehicles the lighter one always comes off worse.  That doesn't feature in marketing, "buy our 2.5 tonne car, and live whilst the other driver and their  occupants die"

Edited March 26 by malumbu
Amended to 2.5 tonne eg Range Rover

[Penguin68]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

In collisions between vehicles the lighter one always comes off worse

That would be generally true of any collision between any two objects, or indeed people. And yes, people do spend what they can to buy well made and safe vehicles. But actually, in modern cars it is the design, e.g. crumple zones etc which protect drivers and passengers and not (just) the relative weights of the vehicles. 

[David Peckham]

4 hours ago, malumbu said:

In collisions between vehicles the lighter one always comes off worse.  That doesn't feature in marketing, "buy our 3 tonne car, and live whilst the other driver and their  occupants die"

There are no cars weighing 3 tonnes on the UK market, SUV or otherwise. The only SUVs over 2.5 tonnes start at £140k and can run to over £300k. For obvious reasons, they're really not on every corner.

The 3 top selling cars in the UK last year were the Ford Puma, the Kia Sportage and the Nissan Qashqai. All fall under the SUV banner, but all weigh around 1.5 tonnes - the same as a VW Golf, the best selling standard family hatchback.

There are SUVs that are inappropriate for urban streets, but the idea that there's an 'epidemic' of oversized killing machines is hysterical.

 

[malumbu]

3 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

That would be generally true of any collision between any two objects, or indeed people. And yes, people do spend what they can to buy well made and safe vehicles. But actually, in modern cars it is the design, e.g. crumple zones etc which protect drivers and passengers and not (just) the relative weights of the vehicles. 

Ultimately it's the weight, modern cars should all have high levels of protection for the occupants.

[Rockets]

There is a lot of hyperbole over SUVs, granted, if you get hit by one you are far more likely to suffer terrible injuries, in fact I read that the Ford F150 and Chevy Silverado are the most dangerous cars on the roads in the US and that's not surprising as they are huge and also a lot of American roads are 6 lane motorways (ostensibly) through residential areas and everyone seems to own a monster truck.

In the UK by comparison I keep seeing research (that claims to come from DfT STATS19 data) that says the car involved in most accidents that lead to injury in the UK: Toyota Prius, followed by Vauxhall Corsas and Astras and Volkswagen Golf. Range Rovers are the only one on the list that falls into the SUV category.

One thing worth considering as well is that due to the high value margins involved many of the newest and most expensive SUVs are some of the most advanced cars on the roads and come with significant accident avoidance technology, often long before smaller, less expensive, cars do.

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

10 hours ago, David Peckham said:

The 3 top selling cars in the UK last year were the Ford Puma, the Kia Sportage and the Nissan Qashqai. All fall under the SUV banner, but all weigh around 1.5 tonnes - the same as a VW Golf, the best selling standard family hatchback.

There are SUVs that are inappropriate for urban streets, but the idea that there's an 'epidemic' of oversized killing machines is hysterical.

Not just about weight (although that is a big factor), but also the high bonnet. An SUV / suv cross with a high bonnet is about twice as likely to kill a pedestrian in a collision as a similar sized saloon car. 8 times more likely to kill a child. They're designed in a way that causes significantly more upper body and head injuries, which is typically what leads to serious injury and death. It's equivalent to being shot in the leg, or shot in the heart / head. Neither is good, but your more likely to survive one over the other. There is no good reason for it, except marketing / fashion and there are some very negative impacts.

9 hours ago, Rockets said:

In the UK by comparison I keep seeing research (that claims to come from DfT STATS19 data) that says the car involved in most accidents that lead to injury in the UK: Toyota Prius, followed by Vauxhall Corsas and Astras and Volkswagen Golf. Range Rovers are the only one on the list that falls into the SUV category.

This is a complete misunderstanding of the statistics. That isn't because they are more dangerous cars, but because there are more of them / they are more popular (for now). The growth in SUVs / SUV cross vehicles however has been exponential, and they are considerably more dangerous. So it is a legitimate concern.

Also, the growth in the number of 4X4 off road vehicles in London is unbelievable. I don't want cars which have been designed to easily leave the road and career through any obstacle in a built up area. Look at what happened in Wimbledon.

I have never heard anyone explain why it's desirable in any way to have bigger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles in London.

Edited March 27 by Earl Aelfheah

[David Peckham]

But you're using statistics from US studies, which include the big Ford, Chevrolet and Ram 'trucks'. They're as overweight as Lizzo and as slab-fronted as Harry Maguire's forehead or an Easter Island statue.

They're also very badly driven. PJ O'Rourke once called them: 'The world's only beer-guided motor vehicle.'

Of course these behemoths are more dangerous than a standard hatchback, but they aren't available on the UK market. In general, they're not type-approved for the UK. They're irrelevant to what's happening here.

The change here has been from hatchbacks to 'SUV style' vehicles built on hatchback platforms and, in general, designers have recognised how the cars will be used.

When the Puma was introduced it scored 77% in the Euro NCAP VRU (Vulnerable Road User) tests, the contemporary VW Golf scored 76%. The 'SUV' is actually a tiny bit safer to be hit by if you're a pedestrian or cyclist.

It's also lighter and less powerful than the Golf. It isn't four wheel drive. Frankly, I've seen teenagers with bigger and scarier trainers than the Ford Puma, but it's still considered an SUV.

Land Rover has less than 2% of the car market in the UK, their largest car is their lowest volume seller here. Large SUVs are not everywhere.

I don't like SUVs at all. The larger ones are ostentatious and over engineered for what they're used for and the smaller ones are basically hatchbacks in combat gear.

They're crap and tasteless, they dominate the sales charts but they're not the menace many are suggesting based on conflating two sets of data.

[malumbu]

Euro NCAP is a voluntary scheme, it is useful, but doesn't guarantee that you will not hurt a pedestrian, your own occupants, or other road users, in a collision.  Ultimately it is speed and weight that are the main determinants. 20mph zones is generally a good thing in urban areas.  Driver training, particularly refresher training, would be valuable.  I feel that there is enough general information about the hazards of speeding, but more could be done to encourage smoother driving, and better anticipation of the road ahead and awareness of other road users.  Traffic calming is a mixed blessing, it doesn't always encourage smoother driving and hence less congestio, and there is danger that the frustration that some feel may manifest itself in the foot on the throttle where there are uncalmed roads, particularly where there are no speed cameras,

An odd bit of road is along Crystal Palace Parade, being in Bromley who generally hasn't adopted 20mph, speed limit goes up to 30, but you are surrounded by 3 boroughs with 20mph throughout.

I've got an article on the safest vehicles from Autotrader but I will post this once I have the typical kerbside weights.

Ultimately it is us, as responsible citizens, that can do more to reduce pollution, reduce congestion, improve road safety through smarter choices.  The vehicle we drive, including shared ownership, when, how and where we drive (if we drive at all on a particular journey).  I've said this so many times!  Central government could put out a stronger message, but following the nonsense of Sunak's manufactured culture wars, and with Reform breathing down everyone's necks, Starmer doesn't want to put across the message above for fear of losing votes.  Shame, up to Johnson recent PMs have been generally going the right way.

I suspect that the data on the vehicles most involved in collisions reflects some demographics - Prius's Uber drivers (although my limited experience is that they are generally better drivers), Corsas and Astras can be hot hatches.  I've not looked a the evidence,

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, David Peckham said:

The change here has been from hatchbacks to 'SUV style' vehicles built on hatchback platforms and, in general, designers have recognised how the cars will be used.

The issue is primarily bonnet height. I agree that there are a lot of smaller SUV style vehicles, which definitely aren't as dangerous as the big SUVs, but they're also more dangerous than a standard saloon. There are also more and more, properly big SUVs - the ironically named 'Defenders' and the like, especially round Dulwich.

US studies have looked in detail at the different bonnet heights (and shape) make to the severity of injury (below graphic is taken from one of these; They didn't just look at the super massive SUVs, but a range of vehicles and what is clear is the higher the bonnet, generally the higher the risk of serious injury). Similar EU studies have also found hood height to be predictive of greater harm.

There will be exceptions, but this move toward higher vehicles, both SUV and SUV 'style' vehicles is not one that is making streets safer.

The average width of a new car in the EU and UK passed 180cm in the first half of 2023, having grown an average of 0.5cm each year since 2001. New cars have become so bloated that half of them are too wide to fit in parking spaces designed to the minimum on-street standards.

Again, I have never heard anyone explain why a general trend towards bigger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles in London is desirable.

Edited March 27 by Earl Aelfheah

[David Peckham]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

Euro NCAP is a voluntary scheme, it is useful, but doesn't guarantee that you will not hurt a pedestrian, your own occupants, or other road users, in a collision.  Ultimately it is speed and weight that are the main determinants. 20mph zones is generally a good thing in urban areas.  Driver training, particularly refresher training, would be valuable.  I feel that there is enough general information about the hazards of speeding, but more could be done to encourage smoother driving, and better anticipation of the road ahead and awareness of other road users.  Traffic calming is a mixed blessing, it doesn't always encourage smoother driving and hence less congestio, and there is danger that the frustration that some feel may manifest itself in the foot on the throttle where there are uncalmed roads, particularly where there are no speed cameras,

An odd bit of road is along Crystal Palace Parade, being in Bromley who generally hasn't adopted 20mph, speed limit goes up to 30, but you are surrounded by 3 boroughs with 20mph throughout.

I've got an article on the safest vehicles from Autotrader but I will post this once I have the typical kerbside weights.

Ultimately it is us, as responsible citizens, that can do more to reduce pollution, reduce congestion, improve road safety through smarter choices.  The vehicle we drive, including shared ownership, when, how and where we drive (if we drive at all on a particular journey).  I've said this so many times!  Central government could put out a stronger message, but following the nonsense of Sunak's manufactured culture wars, and with Reform breathing down everyone's necks, Starmer doesn't want to put across the message above for fear of losing votes.  Shame, up to Johnson recent PMs have been generally going the right way.

I suspect that the data on the vehicles most involved in collisions reflects some demographics - Prius's Uber drivers (although my limited experience is that they are generally better drivers), Corsas and Astras can be hot hatches.  I've not looked a the evidence,

 

Euro NCAP is voluntary, but it's still a valid point of comparison. Whether you're hit by the UK's best selling hatchback or best selling SUV, at any given speed, the outcome will be broadly the same. I've always found Golf drivers to be a slightly classier bunch than Ford drivers in general, so that may influence your choice on whom you're hit by.

Apart from people driving 15-20 year old Golf GTIs.

They're generally arseholes.

As regards safest cars, Volvo and Subaru are always close to the top for both passengers and pedestrians. That does seem a little counterintuitive, considering both their ranges are almost exclusively SUVs and large estate cars.

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 minute ago, David Peckham said:

Euro NCAP is voluntary, but it's still a valid point of comparison. Whether you're hit by the UK's best selling hatchback or best selling SUV, at any given speed, the outcome will be broadly the same.

I don't think this is correct. NCAP just ensures that they're not more dangerous than the maximum that standards allows. It doesn't mean that all compliant vehicles are as safe as each other. 

If both a mini and a SUV meet the NCAP standard it does not mean that being hit by them will result in broadly the same outcome.

Again, I have never heard anyone explain why a general trend towards bigger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles in London is desirable.

[Rockets]

The problem is much of the negativity and scaremongering around SUVs comes from the US and this is totally understandable. In fact, in the US they aren't known as SUVs but trucks and the really scary thing is that the F-Series and Silverado are the two biggest selling cars of any car and look at the units sold - the F Series sells more cars than all of the UK Top 10 put together and there is not one car in that list that comes close to the size of the 4 pick-up trucks highlighted in the US Top 10.

Take a look at these two pics as well showing how big some of these monsters are, comparing a Ford F50 vs Fiesta and Silverado vs a Golf.

Absolutely agree, there is no place for these on roads in the UK but we need to keep the perspective and stop the hyperbole - yes UK cars are getting bigger (much of this is being driven by electrification) but we will never get to the situation the US finds itself in.

P.S. Whatever happened to RaptorTruckMan......

 

 

US 2024 Top-10 Car Sales

1. Ford F-Series - 765,649

2. Chevrolet Silverado: 549,945 

3. Toyota RAV4: 475,193

4. Tesla Model Y - 405,900

5. Honda CRV - 402,791

6. Ram Pickup: 373,120  

7. GMC Sierra - 324,734

8. Toyota Camry - 309,876

9. Nissan Rogue - 245, 724

10. Honda Civic -242,005

 

 

UK 2024 Top 10 Car Sales

1. Ford Puma - 48,384

2. Kia Sportage - 47,163

3. Nissan Qashqai - 42,418

4. Nissan Juke - 34,454

5. Tesla Model Y - 32,862

6. VW Golf - 32,370

7. Hyundai Tucson - 32,174

8. MG Motor HS - 30,207

9. Volvo XC40 - 30,202

10. VW Polo - 28,981

Edited March 27 by Rockets

[David Peckham]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I don't think this is correct. NCAP just ensures that they're not more dangerous than the maximum that standards allows. It doesn't mean that all compliant vehicles are as safe as each other. 

If both a mini and a SUV meet the NCAP standard it does not mean that being hit by them will result in broadly the same outcome.

Again, I have never heard anyone explain why a general trend towards bigger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles in London is desirable.

Euro NCAP gives an overall rating (1-5 stars) but also breaks this down over four categories, one of which is VRU (Vulnerable Road User). This is pedestrians and cyclists. The Puma scored 77%, the Golf 76%.

I'd say that's a broadly similar outcome.

The idea that Defenders and their ilk are all over Dulwich isn't backed up by numbers.

Full size SUVs are a tiny part of the market.

There's, at most, 75,000 Defenders been sold in the UK since they were introduced in 2020. That's 0.25% of the total cars in the UK. One in every 400.

If you're seeing them everywhere in Dulwich I'd get your eyes tested or take a little water with it next time.

[malumbu]

Go on the South Circular in West Dulwich during school start and end and you will see a disproportionate number of large SUV type vehicles - I expect that this is to do with wealth, but maybe also a feeling of greater safety.

Ford stopping production of the Fiesta three years ago is a good indication of how the car industry works, persuading owners to go bigger brings in more profit.  Their reason, despite the popularity, was they needed space in Cologne to produce a new EV.  Yes, you've guessed it, a SUV style EV (Ford Explorer).  It's brutalist design says a lot to me.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-fiesta-production-ends-after-47-years

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 hours ago, David Peckham said:

If you're seeing them everywhere in Dulwich I'd get your eyes tested or take a little water with it next time.

Don't think I said they're everywhere, I said there are more and more of those types of car (Volvo XC90s, BMW X7, Range Rovers etc). There are. They're still a minority of all vehicles as I said already, but there is no doubt their numbers are on the rise. The growth in medium and large SUVs is accelerating year on year. It's not uncommon to see 4X4's in Dulwich.

And the rise in car size is not an inevitable consequence of electrification as Rockets suggests. There are plenty of small electric cars. The trend for car bloat precedes the move to electric, its the result of marketing.

Again, I would like to hear someone explain why ever bigger, heavier, higher fronted, off road vehicles should be welcomed in a built up areas like London?

And not with 'a ford Puma isn't that bad'. That's deflection.

Edited March 27 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

48 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

And the rise in car size is not an inevitable consequence of electrification as Rockets suggests. There are plenty of small electric cars. The trend for car bloat precedes the move to electric, its the result of marketing.

Earls it is. Electrification is leading to bigger and heavier cars. Why? Because the majority of the car is battery and to get the range you need to increase the size of the battery and that increases the dimensions of the car. A friend has an Audi Q8 electric car and whilst it looks big on the outside it feels almost claustrophobic on the inside and has a tiny boot - why, because of the size of the battery needed and the space it takes which raises the floor height. Just look at some of the electric monstrosities coming out in China (who are now the leader in EV) - many of them look like massive shoe boxes on wheels - why? Because of the battery.

A bigger concern for me is exactly the Chinese EV issue if you look at the design trends (see the Ford Focus shared by Malumbu) is that, for some reason, electric cars seem to be squarer, blockier and with more prominent nose sections.

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Again, I would like to hear someone explain why ever bigger, heavier, higher fronted, off road vehicles should be welcomed in a built up areas like London?

Because how on earth do you legislate to stop them coming into London without also then having to address even bigger, heavier, high-fronted vehicles like vans and buses.....and given the fact Toyota Prius are the vehicles involved in most injury causing accidents on what grounds do single out SUVs - and "I don't like SUVs or SUV drivers" aren't grounds for barring them from a city.

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

And not with 'a ford Puma isn't that bad'. That's deflection.

I think it is pretty clear that the citing of the Ford Puma was given as an example of how the hyperbole around the "Epidemic of SUVs" isn't actually born out by the facts - that in the Top 10 UK car sales only one is close to being considered an SUV. That's not a deflection.

Maybe people's perception of the number of SUVs on the roads is being influenced because we live in a wealthy part of London and people see more of them on the roads. But like a lot of things Dulwich life is not a reflection of life everywhere.

[malumbu]

Why are you buying the car industry's propaganda?  There are plenty of lighter weight EVs with reasonable ranges. 200 miles plus. I wager that many drive longer distances than this only a few times a year.

The manufacturers make far more money on large vehicles.  The market is saturated, there are too many factories across the world, cars last twice as long as they did a few decades ago so demand for new has fallen.  Therefore they market the dream of larger vehicles, ICE and electric .  Leasing appears unsustainable and may collapse like a pack of carrs.  Sooner or later the market will readjust; The UK went through this many years ago with much of the mass production ending.  

For some reason nations cling onto manufacturing for national pride.  Germany can't continue like this.  Trump will protect his industry with ludicrous tariff that could backfire.  China may continue to flood the market.  Bit of a mess.  

 

[David Peckham]

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Don't think I said they're everywhere, I said there are more and more of those types of car (Volvo XC90s, BMW X7, Range Rovers etc). There are. They're still a minority of all vehicles as I said already, but there is no doubt their numbers are on the rise. The growth in medium and large SUVs is accelerating year on year. It's not uncommon to see 4X4's in Dulwich.

And the rise in car size is not an inevitable consequence of electrification as Rockets suggests. There are plenty of small electric cars. The trend for car bloat precedes the move to electric, its the result of marketing.

Again, I would like to hear someone explain why ever bigger, heavier, higher fronted, off road vehicles should be welcomed in a built up areas like London?

And not with 'a ford Puma isn't that bad'. That's deflection.

Large SUVs are a tiny minority, but you seem unduly focussed on them. Particularly the stats based on US models which aren't available here. The SUVs available in the UK are not twice as likely to kill an adult or eight times as likely to kill a child.

Have a look at the diagram you posted and the photos Rockets posted. Look at the difference in scale. The majority of SUVs in the UK, even the largest, would fall into the middle left category, the one where there is no increase in pedestrian injuries.

The increase in car size started well before the growth in SUV sales - the Fiesta grew by up to 50% over the 47 years it was around. That wasn't driven by fashion.  A major part of it was the increase in safety features, but we are getting bigger too - manufacturers reacted to this by building larger cars. It's not simply marketing and it will be exacerbated by the demand for longer ranges, and therefore bigger batteries, in EVs.

I don't think anyone could rationalise accepting larger, inappropriate vehicles. I certainly can't, but clearly wealth is no guarantee of taste. I think they're crass as well, but I just don't see them as the existential threat the article at the start of the thread suggests they are.

[malumbu]

I was quite pleased with my last post, as this was written from memory and experience, rather than recent research. I then found a recent article from the Grauniad about decline in UK manufacturing which is worth a read https://www.theguardian.com/business/2025/jan/30/uk-car-production-falls-to-lowest-level-since-1954#:~:text=British car production fell in,fossil fuels to electric vehicles.

Spoiler alert, apparently Brexit is not working well

Cars did get heavier due to improved safety, mandated under type approval, widespread adoption of power steering, and other improvements That became standard.  Driving a Citroen AX may be fun but not colliding into a fixed or moving object at speed.

But the super sizing of vehicles in recent years has led to a further increase in average weight.

Edited March 27 by malumbu
typed Brexit is now working well, rather than 'not' ho ho

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, malumbu said:

For some reason nations cling onto manufacturing for national pride.  Germany can't continue like this. 

Germany also cannot afford to lose 780,000 jobs in car production; that has nothing to do with national pride - it's about survival. 

Governments are delaying the phasing out of sales of ICE vehicles because the Chinese are too good at EVs, can produce them cheaply and are a huge threat to the established players. VW will sell you an ID4 for at least £45,000 here. In China they have to sell them for £15,000 such is the pressue on prices and they're losing money each time they sell one in China as they desperately trying to maintain marketshare. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

12 hours ago, David Peckham said:

Large SUVs are a tiny minority, but you seem unduly focussed on them

I’m just focussed on them, because it’s what most people mean when they talk of SUVs. You seem to want to talk about smaller vehicles. That feels like deflection (although some of your other points are fair). 
No one has said large SUVs are a majority of vehicles (in fact I explicitly said they’re a minority), but their numbers are growing quickly, particularly in inner London (bizarrely).
Large off road vehicles are not a sensible choice in built up areas. Perhaps we can agree on that?

Edited March 28 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

30 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Large off road vehicles are not a sensible choice in built up areas. Perhaps we can agree on that?

And if that's your exclusive use for the vehicle then it's probably an unnecessary expense, assuming  you don't have to transport bulky materials or many people. Or visit building sites etc. And certainly and anecdotally large vehicles are used only in town by some people. But not, I suggest, all that many. But if you have only one car and you use it more ubiquitously then, and at times, your usage in town will look unnecessary. Even if it's only part of your usage. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Very, very few people need a large off road vehicle in London. Yet, their numbers are growing quickly. It is not unusual to see large SUVs in a number of inner London suburbs, Dulwich included. Something that was almost unheard of 10 years ago. If you think this trend is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained. Because I can't see how it is desirable in any way.

Edited March 28 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Yet, their numbers are growing quickly. It

Evidence? The number of cars with SUV style bodyshells is, the number of true, off road, truck based vehicles probably isn't, at least that quickly. And the South end of Southwark is technically inner London, but we know it really isn't, compared with the North of the borough.