SUVs - “An Epidemic”

[Earl Aelfheah]

11 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

And there are relatively few of these real beasts and a lot of sheep in wolf's clothing. By the way, 4 wheel drive is a positive safety issue, without it I couldn't have managed one of ED's hills the last time we had snow, passing a bus that had slid sideways. Just because 4WD is necessary for off roading etc. doesn't make it evil. It may be generally unnecessary on urban roads, but that just means it's an unnecessary cost to the purchaser. 

Most of the research I've seen broadly defines SUVs as including cross over vehicles.

There is no doubt that vehicles have got bigger, higher, and heavier, year on year in the UK. The semantics of what you call this trend for bigger vehicles is irrelevant; It is not a good one for road safety. And in built up areas it really is undesirable imo. 

[Penguin68]

4 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Most of the research I've seen broadly defines SUVs as including cross over vehicles.

And that couldn't remotely mean that this research has an agenda possibly? Recognise that's not something in your normal vocabulary!

[Earl Aelfheah]

Here we go....

Look, if you think that bigger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles are no more dangerous than smaller ones, fill your boots. It's clearly not the case though. And there is plenty of research to prove it's not.

And putting safety to one side, it can't be sensible that half of new cars sold in the UK are too big to fit into the average parking space.

[first mate]

3 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

And there are relatively few of these real beasts and a lot of sheep in wolf's clothing. By the way, 4 wheel drive is a positive safety issue, without it I couldn't have managed one of ED's hills the last time we had snow, passing a bus that had slid sideways. Just because 4WD is necessary for off roading etc. doesn't make it evil. It may be generally unnecessary on urban roads, but that just means it's an unnecessary cost to the purchaser. 

I think I remember that year. Was that the time buses were all parked up in lines because they could not get up or down the hills either end of ED?

[Penguin68]

Yup, think it was. The bus in question was on Underhill at the bottom of the cemetery hill. 

Edited March 3 by Penguin68

[malumbu]

3 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

And there are relatively few of these real beasts and a lot of sheep in wolf's clothing. By the way, 4 wheel drive is a positive safety issue, without it I couldn't have managed one of ED's hills the last time we had snow, passing a bus that had slid sideways. Just because 4WD is necessary for off roading etc. doesn't make it evil. It may be generally unnecessary on urban roads, but that just means it's an unnecessary cost to the purchaser. 

How did you manage with two wheel drive all those years?  Traction control, ABS yes.  Four wheel drive - really?

[Penguin68]

I didn't, in an earlier snow episode I slid sideways down Sydenham Hill, it had been a sudden snow storm in the afternoon rush with no gritting. Luckily I didn't hit anything, and nothing hit me, but when I changed our my car and there was a suitable one available second hand with 4WD I snapped it up. My kids were in the car at the time and I didn't want a repeat with a less fortuitous outcome. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

To claim that 4WD is a necessary safety feature in London is laughable. Larger, heavier, higher fronted vehicles which easily mount verbs and pole through barriers are not safer in a built up area.

The fact that 4WD once allowed you to drive in snow and ice (when advice was not to), is not evidence that it’s the responsible choice 

[Penguin68]

55 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

The fact that 4WD once allowed you to drive in snow and ice (when advice was not to), is not evidence that it’s the responsible choice 

I was driving my children back when the snowstorm hit. Not forecast. And rather a spiteful, unpleasant and unthinking statement. I must just hope you're never caught in unexpected and unforecast poor weather. And how does anyone having 4WD hurt you? And the second occasion when I did have 4WD was again an unexpected event where I had to get people home. Certainly public transport wouldn't have helped then. 

[malumbu]

So you are justifying 4 WD just in case a freak snow storm happens.  I've never experienced one of these in the UK.  The impact on environment, roads, pedestrian safety, use of resources doesn't matter?  If you are that worried about freak snow storms in the UK you are far better off with winter tyres, than four wheel drive.  I've driven plenty of times in Austria and Italy in the mountains with 2WD and winter tyres.

I've driven many times in the UK in snow with just 2WD, particularly when young living further North where we had regular snow.  In my younger days it was quite exciting. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

18 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

I was driving my children back when the snowstorm hit. Not forecast. And rather a spiteful, unpleasant and unthinking statement. I must just hope you're never caught in unexpected and unforecast poor weather. And how does anyone having 4WD hurt you? And the second occasion when I did have 4WD was again an unexpected event where I had to get people home. Certainly public transport wouldn't have helped then. 

An example of an exceptional occasion where you got stuck in an unforecasted snow storm (really?) is not evidence that a 4WD vehicle is important for ‘safety’ in London. 

SUVs and cross over vehicles are 8 times more likely to kill a child in a collision than a standard saloon car. You can make any choice you like, but don’t pretend it’s a safety issue in London. Look at what happened in Wimbledon. We don’t need off road vehicles in built up areas.

Edited March 4 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Malumbu said:

" just in case a freak snow storm happens.  I've never experienced one of these in the UK"

Surprised you haven't experienced this ever in the UK? I have. I remember being caught out by unforecasted snow, falling so fast and thick there was near zero visibility. The weather conditions changed incredibly fast and lots of drivers caught out. It was also early evening, so dark. Many cars had to pull over; a number of them sliding around on the road too. It was incredibly scary.

More recently I have also been caught out by absolutely torrential rain (more akin to monsoon conditions) similarly unforcasted and also very difficult to drive in.

[Earl Aelfheah]

6 minutes ago, first mate said:

More recently I have also been caught out by absolutely torrential rain (more akin to monsoon conditions) similarly unforcasted and also very difficult to drive in.

A 4WD is clearly essential in inner London due to … rain?

You can drive what you like, but come on. Let’s be serious.

[first mate]

I didn't say that; I was just commenting that like P68, I had also got caught out in a totally unexpected snowstorm, in this country. 

I think the snowstorm was around 2018; I wonder if that was the same year for you Penguin?

The torrential rain was much more recent but really unlike anything I have experienced in this country before. 

Edited March 3 by first mate

[malumbu]

In 2010 we were hit with some extreme winter weather. I cycled through it as I did the last time this happened in 1991.  Bit daft as the office closed due to shortage of facilities and security staff.  All buses were cancelled as were most trains.  People whinged saying Russia and Scandinavia managed extreme winter weather so much better. But a senior  colleague said it would be clearly daft to spend 100s of millions on events that happened a few times each century.  That's the way some of you are coming across, justifying large vehicles just in case Krakatoa irrupts. Perhaps I should invest in a skidoo and ice skates for when the Thames next freezes over.

Edited March 3 by malumbu

[first mate]

If I know there is extreme weather coming up, personally I would try to avoid going out in it, although I know some people get a buzz taking risks. I think what is different about the weather events experienced by myself and P68 is the surprise element. I guess with climate change we can expect more unpredictability.

[Earl Aelfheah]

5 hours ago, first mate said:

If I know there is extreme weather coming up, personally I would try to avoid going out in it, although I know some people get a buzz taking risks. I think what is different about the weather events experienced by myself and P68 is the surprise element. I guess with climate change we can expect more unpredictability.

Yes, I agree. But I don't think this is an argument for needing bigger, heavier, higher fronted 4 wheel drive vehicles across London (which seems to be what you're implying?). 

It's more than a little ironic to suggest the answer to climate change is more SUVs and cross over vehicles.

Edited March 4 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

I may have misinterpreted but I felt doubt was being cast on P68 saying that they had experienced an extreme unforeseen weather event. I was simply saying I had also had this experience and not just with snow but also rain. Both times I was really nervous driving and nearly had to pull over, especially the snowstorm at night. So I was posting about that.

Glad we can agree weather unpredictability may be on the rise.

[Moovart]

Another interesting article 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c778ekg64mjo.amp

Small electric cars were said to be the future – but SUVs now rule the road

[malumbu]

Small EVs should be the future in metropolitan areas.  The first EV I drove was a Leaf.  It was wonderful.  Only surpassed by the first time I went on electrically assisted pedal cycle.  Around the same time I test drove a Tessla model X or S, around the dealership in Shepherds Bush.  That was just silly, totally unneeded in the urban environment.

But as I pointed out elsewhere, how has much of the industry responded?  By developing large SUV variants.  Shame on them.

[Penguin68]

19 minutes ago, malumbu said:

But as I pointed out elsewhere, how has much of the industry responded?  By developing large SUV variants.  Shame on them.

Which the customers apparently wanted. Your 'the customer is always wrong' mindset, if typical, may suggest the reason why the UK is currently in such a financial mess. Allowing the customer only to have what they don't want doesn't seem to me a highway to growth.

[malumbu]

They've been sold a dream, a lifestyle dream.  Not one person owning/running a SUV has posted on this thread to say why they love them.  I wager whichever side of this debate you are on, you don't have one.

Don't be naive to believe that the manufacturers of virtually any product are not trying to get you to upsale/upscale/gold plate etc, that's how they make the greatest profit

In the days before Top Gear got silly, they did an excellent programme on the ideal city car, comparing the main models on sale, and finishing with a line of Fiat 500s, as this ticked all the boxes.

[Penguin68]

2 minutes ago, malumbu said:

I wager whichever side of this debate you are on, you don't have one

Wrong, but a car body type not a truck body type one, So much like most of the others pilloried as SUV owners. Also it's a hybrid.

But I don't have the luxury of having a city car to go with my car, I'm afraid, as I don't just use it in the city.

Edited March 17 by Penguin68

[Moovart]

This comment is illuminating 🫤...

"It is the industry that has driven the demand through huge marketing and advertising campaigns in recent years," said Dudley Curtis, the communications manager at the European Transport Safety Council.

"SUVs offered the industry a simple way of charging more for a vehicle that does the same thing [as others]," he said.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Fundamentally, ever bigger, heavier, higher fronted, off road vehicles should not be welcomed in a built up area. We should insist on stricter safety standards / regulation. It isn't that long ago that we laughed at US drivers for taking these ridiculous vehicles everywhere, inevitably, car companies have managed to sell the same damaging illusion of SUVs as offering 'freedom' to many in the UK. 

Edited March 26 by Earl Aelfheah