SUVs - “An Epidemic”

[Earl Aelfheah]

10 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

Evidence? The number of cars with SUV style bodyshells is, the number of true, off road, truck based vehicles probably isn't, at least that quickly. And the South end of Southwark is technically inner London, but we know it really isn't, compared with the North of the borough. 

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/suv-sales-up-by-more-than-a-fifth 

"...sales of SUVs, including large SUVs, Have been increasing significantly in the UK, with SUV registrations exceeding one million in 2023, and SUVs now accounting for a substantial portion of all new car registrations"

And again, if you think a trend for more large off road vehicles in London is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained.

[Rockets]

I don't think anyone is saying the trend for larger cars is a good one but other than the fact people are ideologically opposed to them (or maybe their drivers) I really don't understand the fevered reaction to them and there is nothing to suggest there is an epidemic as the title suggests. It does seem that people are conflating (perhaps deliberately) the massive challenges the US has with truck sized SUVs that are 1) bought in huge numbers - the F150 is America's best selling vehicle and over 700,000 were sold last year alone and 2) kill and injure people in huge numbers as a result.

The fact there is only 1 SUV (and even that is small compared to the "trucks" in the US) in the UK Top 10 sales figures for last year really demonstrates that this is in no-way an epidemic.

The question remains, on what grounds are people going to ban them in London when a much smaller car - Toyota Prius - is actually a bigger menace to people because 1) there are so many of them and 2) given many are PHVs spend a very large time on the road so proportionally are the vehicle most involved in injury causing accidents.

18 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/suv-sales-up-by-more-than-a-fifth 

"...sales of SUVs, including large SUVs, Have been increasing significantly in the UK, with SUV registrations exceeding one million in 2023, and SUVs now accounting for a substantial portion of all new car registrations"

And again, if you think a trend for more large off road vehicles in London is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained.

Hang on @Earl Aelfheah that survey counts a Mini, Ford Puma and Nissan Juke as an SUV.....and the chart below seems to show that's where the big growth is coming from. I don't think anyone looks at one of those and thinks that's an SUV.

 

Is the Ford Puma a vehicle you categorise as an SUV? Are you suggesting we ban all of these from London as well?

 

Edited Friday at 11:02 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

23 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Hang on @Earl Aelfheah that survey counts a Mini, Ford Puma and Nissan Juke as an SUV.....and the chart below seems to show that's where the big growth is coming from

No, it very explicitly breaks down 'SUVs' into different categories from 'mini', to 'large'. It shows year on year growth trend in all categories, including 'SUV Large'. 

Edited Friday at 11:09 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

So, as I have argued, 'SUV' in UK parlance reflects body style/ shape. not that they are Sports Utility Vehicles (that is, converted trucks)

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't get the insistence on talking about mini SUVs, whilst ignoring the conversation about Large SUVs (which are what most people mean when they talk about SUVs). It feels like deflection. 

3 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

So, as I have argued, 'SUV' in UK parlance reflects body style/ shape. not that they are Sports Utility Vehicles (that is, converted trucks)

You don't think an 4X4 Range Rover sport is an example of an SUV? Because they call it themselves "The original luxury SUV"

Edited Friday at 11:16 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

3 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

It shows year on year growth trend in all categories, including 'SUV Large'. 

But it does not say that these vehicles have been bought for sole suburban or urban use. There are perfectly good reasons for buying what classes as a 'large' SUV for use across the UK - remembering that there are frankly virtually no 'large' American Style SUVs in use here, for perfectly good reasons to do with road widths etc.

[Earl Aelfheah]

2 minutes ago, Penguin68 said:

But it does not say that these vehicles have been bought for sole suburban or urban use. There are perfectly good reasons for buying what classes as a 'large' SUV for use across the UK - remembering that there are frankly virtually no 'large' American Style SUVs in use here, for perfectly good reasons to do with road widths etc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56647128#:~:text=Three quarters of all SUVs,areas is a large SUV.

"The largest SUVs are most popular in three London boroughs - Kensington and Chelsea, Hammersmith & Fulham, and Westminster. One in three new private cars bought in these areas is a large SUV."

[Penguin68]

3 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

You don't think an 4X4 Range Rover sport is an SUV?

It is in UK terms, but is very much a baby brother compared with US SUVs. And it's not actually built on a truck body plan. And when did I suggest anything to the contrary? My argument has always been that we use the term SUV in the UK to reflect body style and design, not a truck origin. That is not so in the US, where most of the (justifiable?) criticism has arisen.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Again, rather than saying "yes but there are small SUV style vehicles", or "some people may need a large off road vehicle outside London", or "but there are even bigger, more ridiculous vehicles in the US", how about acknowledging that there are more and more of these cars being driving in London. 

Again, if you think a trend for more large off road vehicles in London is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained.

Edited Friday at 11:22 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

2 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

"The largest SUVs are most popular in three London boroughs - Kensington and Chelsea, Hammersmith & Fulham, and Westminster. One in three new private cars bought in these areas is a large SUV."

This reflects, I'm guessing, disposable income - and does not therefore mean that these vehicles are solely, or mainly, used in those boroughs; that is precisely the area in London where you might expect second home ownership and a 'place in the country'. 

[Rockets]

To be fair @Earl Aelfheah - you're throwing around headlines and articles to try and justify the "epidemic of SUVs" like the below 

32 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

"...sales of SUVs, including large SUVs, Have been increasing significantly in the UK, with SUV registrations exceeding one million in 2023, and SUVs now accounting for a substantial portion of all new car registrations"

but when you look at the detail it includes cars that no-one thinks of as SUVs and then you look even further you realise the attention grabbing headline is because the major growth is not in actual SUVs but things like a Nissan Qashqai or Ford Puma.

And I am sorry but this is not an SUV....and this is the SUV Mini category in that survey.

[Earl Aelfheah]

You may want to talk about small cars. I am not. I'm talking about the significant year on year growth in large SUVs, most of which are in driven in towns and cities. This is a fact and if you want to defend it, then do.

Posting pictures of small cars is utter deflection.

Again, if you think a trend for more large off road vehicles in London is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained.

[Penguin68]

2 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Again, if you think a trend for more large off road vehicles in London is a good one, then I would like to hear it explained.

Personal choice. Until we live in the marxist dictatorship you obviously envy  people should be able to do what they want, within the law. These cars that you hate (and you probably hate their drivers as well) cost more (good for the economy) , drive far higher tax revenues than other cars and are frequently driven carefully by their owners because they value their investment. They are also stuffed with safety features which reduce risk for drivers and others. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 minute ago, Penguin68 said:

Personal choice. Until we live in the marxist dictatorship you obviously envy  people should be able to do what they want, within the law. These cars that you hate (and you probably hate their drivers as well) cost more (good for the economy) , drive far higher tax revenues than other cars and are frequently driven carefully by their owners because they value their investment. They are also stuffed with safety features which reduce risk for drivers and others. 

And there it is

Edited Friday at 11:28 by Earl Aelfheah

[Penguin68]

3 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I'm talking about the significant year on year growth in large SUVs

There were 3,420 sold across the UK in 2023. Granted that's an increase on 2022 - but sometimes %ages are less useful to understand real issues than absolute numbers. There are 262,300 miles of paved roads in the UK so that's an additional large SUV for every 77 miles of road. Oh, the horror!

[Rockets]

3 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

You may want to talk about small cars. I am not.

But you are because you are sharing hyperbole reports and headlines to justify your narrative on SUVs yet the data within those reports includes small cars that they deem to be "SUVs". 

6 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Posting pictures of small cars is utter deflection.

But it's not at all - you seem to think those cars are part of the SUV problem. Do you? Because if not I do not know why you are using research and articles that do to back up your point. You have to agree the headline you shared is undermined massively when you look at the detail included within.

[Earl Aelfheah]

As I said above, I think there have been some fair points made about some of the research and the different context between US and UK, but then also made the following point:

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Large off road vehicles are not a sensible choice in built up areas. Perhaps we can agree on that?

When one in three new private cars bought in certain London boroughs (like Kensington and Chelsea, Hammersmith & Fulham, and Westminster) are large SUVs that seems like an issue. 

When one cannot even agree that large off road vehicles are not a sensible choice in built up areas, without talking about hate and Marxism, then I think there is some ideological dogma at play frankly.

Edited Friday at 11:52 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

27 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

"The largest SUVs are most popular in three London boroughs - Kensington and Chelsea, Hammersmith & Fulham, and Westminster. One in three new private cars bought in these areas is a large SUV."

But interesting when the report originator never gives any indication as to what 30% of car sales in those areas actually equates to in actual numbers. It makes a good headline until you look and consider well, how many new car sales are there in those boroughs and what is 30% of that.....

Given that in the year that report was published there were 2287 large SUVs bought in the whole country I very much suspect the numbers for those boroughs are no more than a handful and if you went with the actual number rather than a % then the hyperbole impact would have been massively diluted.

12 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

When one cannot even agree that large off road vehicles are not a sensible choice in built up areas, without talking about hate and Marxism, then I think there is some ideological dogma at play frankly.

To be fair @Earl Aelfheah when the original report got publicised by Ash Sarker hate, envy and a healthy dose of Marxist-ideology is normally not far behind.....;-) The original report did wreak of activist research....

 

It is funny because in the original publicity one of the authors/advocates for the report suggested that people should stop buying large SUVs and buy a Tesla instead....that hasn't aged well!!! 😉

 

 

 

[exdulwicher]

11 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Given that in the year that report was published there were 2287 large SUVs bought in the whole country I very much suspect the numbers for those boroughs are no more than a handful and if you went with the actual number rather than a % then the hyperbole impact would have been massively diluted.

Not really. You and Penguin have gone down the route of nitpicking and pedantry over what exactly qualifies as "SUV", arguing that they're not as big as US trucks therefore they're not SUVs whereas the article (and the usage of the term SUV in the UK) is much broader and encompasses everything from a Nissan Qashqai / Vauxhall Mokka at one end right up to Porsche Cayenne / BMW X7 etc at the other end.

Maybe a more accurate term is "car bloat" where vehicles get marginally bigger / higher / heavier each year. If you look at a first gen BMW X5 for example, it looks a right baby next to the current X5.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-25/bigger-heavier-suvs-worsen-traffic-congestion-in-us

That's a US article but the argument holds true over here, in fact more so cos the UK generally has much narrower streets and less off-street parking than the US. It's noticeable now along residential streets how unbelievably narrow the actual usable lane is due to parked cars each side - cars which are way bigger now than they were 10-15 years ago.

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, exdulwicher said:

Not really. You and Penguin have gone down the route of nitpicking and pedantry over what exactly qualifies as "SUV", arguing that they're not as big as US trucks therefore they're not SUVs whereas the article (and the usage of the term SUV in the UK) is much broader and encompasses everything from a Nissan Qashqai / Vauxhall Mokka at one end right up to Porsche Cayenne / BMW X7 etc at the other end.

Absolute nonsense, how you can claim nitpicking and pedantry is laughable. We are not the ones making sensationalist and hyperbolic statements that there are now over one million new SUVs on the road when the "definition" of SUVs to get to that 1 million figure includes vehicles that nobody would ever claim to be SUVs. Do you think a Puma, Qashqai or Mokka is really an SUV? No, I didn't think so.

If you want to have a discussion about the 3,000+ large SUVs purchased in the UK last year go ahead but don't wrap an ideological crusade around it and try to create the narrative that somehow there is an "epidemic of SUVs" in the UK based on injury data from a country (the US) that in 2024 sold over 2 million monster trucks and a country where the best selling vehicles are monster trucks.

If challenged on that narrative don't then share data to back that claims 1 million SUVs sold in the UK that includes the vast majority of cars which  no-one would ever consider to be an SUV because the rational people you want to engage with in the discussion will turn around and go...don't be daft and sideline you as some sort of "eat the rich and their Chelsea tractor crank".

No-one here is doubting car bloat - I actually gave a reason for that and interestingly but somewhat predictably shot down as wrong by other posters.

I am sorry but this thread really highlights how some refuse to let the truth get in the way of a good story and how knee-jerk ideology is not borne out in fact. And remember, it wasn't so long ago that eco-terrorists Tyre Extinguishers were going around letting tyres down on vehicles they deemed to be too big for cities based on this type of nonsense.

There is no epidemic of SUVs in the UK. There is in the US. Don't conflate the two.

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 15:07 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

There has been some fair challenge about the different classifications and differences between US and UK. But to be fair, you have been adding just as much to muddy those waters by insisting on talking about ford Pumas etc.

I thought we might simply agree that a growing trend for more, large off road vehicles in London (which there clearly is) is an undesirable one. But then you have Penguin apparently in favour of it on the grounds of 'personal choice', a very odd belief that anyone who disagrees is simply doing so out of 'envy', and because we're not 'Marxist'. 

Fundamentally, you do see large SUVs in Dulwich when you didn't 10 years ago. I don't want large off road vehicles in built up areas. I'm amazed there are those who do.

[malumbu]

16 hours ago, Rockets said:

Germany also cannot afford to lose 780,000 jobs in car production; that has nothing to do with national pride - it's about survival. 

Governments are delaying the phasing out of sales of ICE vehicles because the Chinese are too good at EVs, can produce them cheaply and are a huge threat to the established players. VW will sell you an ID4 for at least £45,000 here. In China they have to sell them for £15,000 such is the pressue on prices and they're losing money each time they sell one in China as they desperately trying to maintain marketshare. 

Well I don't know how Germany will prop up their car industry,  it is difficult to do state aid if you are in the EU - the UK did it in 2008 when it introduced the scrapage scheme.  State aid is hardly helping UK steel production - another Brexit benefit?  German manufacturers were in trouble long before Covid.

The Chinese state massively subsidises their EVs which the then dump on Western markets.  Let's see how Trump plays out on that.  Not all Chinese products are good, some of the MGs are cheap and very nasty.  William Morris must be turning in his grave at what happened to his brand - MG = Morris Garages, a specialised arms of the then Morris motor company.

[Rockets]

29 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

But to be fair, you have been adding just as much to muddy those waters by insisting on talking about ford Pumas etc.

In my defence I only did that because 300,000 of the "1 million SUVs" article you shared are Ford Pumas or similar and are categorised as "Small SUVs". They are not SUVs - nowhere near it and nowhere near the negative impact of a Ford F50 series SUV/truck.

29 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I thought we might simply agree that a growing trend for more, large off road vehicles in London (which there clearly is) is an undesirable one.

Of course we agree on that but can we also agree that there is no "Epidemic of SUVs"? But short of incentivising manufacturers to not make them how do you stop their sales? When the stories emerged back in 2021 with the research on a 3rd of car sales in Chelsea being large SUVs the call to action centred around banning advertising and trying to advertise to shame people into not owning them but, to be honest, the people I know who own them aren't the type to shame easily and tend not to be the type to care one jot about what anyone else thinks - did Tyre Extinguishers make anyone think twice - I doubt it, far more likely they made people think there are a lot of climate cranks around! 😉

Edited Friday at 16:05 by Rockets