Consultation on banning cash payment on TfL buses

[Mugglesworth]

Yes, the people who run London's public transport want to do away with the concept of paying by cash for a journey on a bus. They claim that less than 1% pay by this method at present but that it needs to be banned completely in order to save money. I suspect that the closure of TfL ticket offices and the removal of advance payment bus ticket machines will have been included in projected savings. TfL currently benefits by charging those who pay by cash a higher fare but has the loss of this surcharge been set against the "savings"?

Saving money sounds like a good idea but who will be disadvantaged? Those who have forgotten or lost their Oystercard, those visiting London and those who need to make an unplanned journey will be denied a bus trip despite being able and willing to pay. TfL also claim that it will "remove delays" although, with so few people paying by cash now, it's hard to see that this would be significant.

Or you may feel differently. Either way, the consultation questionnaire is available here:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/cashless

[JohnL]

They take debit cards now - so I don't mind for general use - is it going to be Oyster/Debit cards only ?

What about an emergency when you give someone ?2 to get home - say someone is mugged and loses their wallet/purse ?

[AcedOut]

Tap them in the bus with an RFID card or Oyster. Simples. In 10 years time, all of London will be cashless...

[Lowlander]

Buses in much of the rest of the first world have been cashless for decades. If a bus cash payment is ?1 more than Oyster then it'll be a good incentive to save those less-well off money.

[Lynne]

I thought cash was "legal tender"

I 've always been quite fond of it, myself. The more the merrier

Lynne

[Sue]

Lynne Wrote:

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> I thought cash was "legal tender"

> I 've always been quite fond of it, myself. The

> more the merrier

> Lynne

xxxxxx

Whenever I go through the "Why is my bag so heavy?" routine (most days ....) it's usually because of a load of coins.

The sooner we do away with cash the better, in my view :)

Provided it isn't going to disadvantage anybody, obviously.

[hoser]

They need to do this in Manchester. It takes 10 minutes at every stop to get everyone's payment!

[uncleglen]

At least they get the payment- I was waiting for someone at a bus stop and watched several people get on a Boris platform bus and not touch in the Oyster

[PeckhamRose]

People trying to get home late night, tourists not realising they have to get an oyster or whatever. Banning cash is daft. I have an Oyster because I live here and it's easy, but I will always pay cash in shops and supermarkets, and everywhere else for everything else. Love cash, me. Online is different. Though I think I saw a new Cash Acceptance app on the market...

[Penguin68]

London is a tourist city - whereas many cities have easy to purchase tickets (or goups of tickets) where you are in effect buying journeys - such as the Paris carnet system - the oyster card system is more difficult to operate (you cash-charge it rather than buying a number of journeys) - so it is more difficult for a visitor to operate - how much do they need to charge it with if they want to make 10, or 15, or 5 trips in London?

Charging foreign debit cards (for trivial amounts per journey) will incur disproportionately large foreign usage charges (for the user) - with one card I have if I used it abroad it would add ?1.50 for each journey - I assume that travellers to Britain would face much the same penalty.

Children - actually anyone unbanked - who may not have their oyster with them (or be from out of London) - will not be able to pay for travel independently, since they tend not to have debit cards (and one wouldn't encourage them to have to take such a card with them wherever they went, considering the number of children regularly mugged)

At least for central London (Zone 1) not taking cash would be dreadful - since many people visiting London would be disbarred from using public transort. As I have said, where transport systems don't use cash directly, they use tickets (journeys) which can be easily bought from many outlets - such as newsagents.

If only 1% of journeys are paid for in cash - with 6M a day (2009 figures, so probably many more now) that is still a lot of people being turned away a year (those who could have an oyster would, I am assuming because of the cost benefit, so we are talking about those not having their oyster at the time, or who don't have oysters at all)

[Lowlander]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> London is a tourist city - whereas many cities

> have easy to purchase tickets (or goups of

> tickets) where you are in effect buying journeys -

> such as the Paris carnet system - the oyster card

> system is more difficult to operate (you

> cash-charge it rather than buying a number of

> journeys) - so it is more difficult for a visitor

> to operate - how much do they need to charge it

> with if they want to make 10, or 15, or 5 trips in

> London?

>

> Charging foreign debit cards (for trivial amounts

> per journey) will incur disproportionately large

> foreign usage charges (for the user) - with one

> card I have if I used it abroad it would add ?1.50

> for each journey - I assume that travellers to

> Britain would face much the same penalty.

>

> Children - actually anyone unbanked - who may not

> have their oyster with them (or be from out of

> London) - will not be able to pay for travel

> independently, since they tend not to have debit

> cards (and one wouldn't encourage them to have to

> take such a card with them wherever they went,

> considering the number of children regularly

> mugged)

>

> At least for central London (Zone 1) not taking

> cash would be dreadful - since many people

> visiting London would be disbarred from using

> public transort. As I have said, where transport

> systems don't use cash directly, they use tickets

> (journeys) which can be easily bought from many

> outlets - such as newsagents.

>

> If only 1% of journeys are paid for in cash - with

> 6M a day (2009 figures, so probably many more now)

> that is still a lot of people being turned away a

> year (those who could have an oyster would, I am

> assuming because of the cost benefit, so we are

> talking about those not having their oyster at the

> time, or who don't have oysters at all)

You can buy an Oyster card in most newsagents and pay in cash. Why would you not use one?

And, I have several Metro tickets from my last trip to Paris (from a book of ten), so poorer value than an Oyster, as you can't cash them in for a refund...

[Penguin68]

You can buy an Oyster card in most newsagents and pay in cash. Why would you not use one?

And, I have several Metro tickets from my last trip to Paris (from a book of ten), so poorer value than an Oyster, as you can't cash them in for a refund...

I assume that you knew how many trips you were buying - and chose a carnet of 10 because these were discounted (by about 20%). You bought 10 trips, and used less than that, but you knew what your money was buying. Quickly - I have charged my Oyster with ?10 (about the sterling equivalent of a carnet) - how many trips does that buy me?

And that still doesn't address the child (under 16) who is in London without an Oyster card and perhaps nowhere near a newsagent (or they are shut) - how is he or she to get home? My children, who could travel free with a child's oyster, were turned off buses without one (and without money).

[Lowlander]

Why would you put ?10 on? Why not ?16 to give you 10 trips, or ?8 to give you five? (answer is 6 trips and 40p left over)

Why would a child be in London without one? If the parents are bright enough to send them here clothed and with cash, they can sure as heck work out how to get them an oyster card.

Why should I subsidise your carelessness? What next, free opticians dispensing forgotten glasses, or complimentary locksmiths for those who have forgotten their keys? Free loan of mobile phones for those short on battery? Free cash for those who don't have enough?

And your point about your child is irrelevant, as they didn't have cash anyway!

[Penguin68]

And your point about your child is irrelevant, as they didn't have cash anyway!

The point I was making was that even though they were children (clearly) and were entitled to travel free with a card, without one the driver wasn't prepared to accept them - and if this goes ahead wouldn't even if they did have cash to pay - which most times they did have.

If the parents are bright enough to send them here clothed and with cash, they can sure as heck work out how to get them an oyster card.

Tried buying an Oyster in Manchester, or Glasgow have you? - you can do it by post, but unless you know (how much publicity is there going to be?) that you can't travel on London transport using cash, why would you?

Many young people (over 15, under 18) travel around the country - to visit friends or whatever, without needing to be accompanied.

From a middle-class perspective cashless is fine - but many people still live in a cash economy - or are we thnking that London Transport should be a middle-class enclave?

[Lowlander]

If you can work out what number bus to get, what side of the street (and at somewhere like Euston which stop to use) to get it from, where to get off, what times it runs; surely you can work out how much it is and then how best to pay?

You can buy an Oystercard at all mainline railway stations.

We're talking less than 1% of passengers using cash here. Are you seriously telling me that over 99% of London Bus passengers are middle-class!?

(The point about your cashless and oysterless child merits a separate thread)

[Mugglesworth]

The essence of the cash transaction is in its simplicity - you have cash, you hand it over in return for goods or services, the transaction is complete. There is no requirement to seek out machines or designated retailers. There is no deposit to be paid (as with Oystercards)and no need to provide ID (as with weekly or longer period travelcards). Cash transactions are easily understood by foreign visitors to London.

When there is already a ?1 per trip financial penalty for paying in cash on buses, the fact that "less than 1%" of journeys are still paid for in cash shows that there is an element of necessity in those transactions - the passengers are not too lazy to pay by the cheaper option, they simply do not have the means to do so as they do not have a card / their PAYG has run out / etc. I feel that banning people from using buses in those circumstances shows that TfL places more emphasis on administrative convenience than the needs of fare paying passengers.

[Lowlander]

From the FAQ:

Who pays cash?

Currently there are around 60,000 cash journeys made on TfL bus services each day, or around 1% of all journeys.

The gender profile of people who pay cash is broadly representative of all bus users. Young people however are more likely to pay cash compared to all bus users. Just over a third of people paying cash live outside of London.

1.5 Why are people paying cash?

Around four fifths of passengers who pay cash are UK residents who have insufficient balance or have forgotten their Oyster card.

Around 3% of people paying cash don?t have a bank account or prefer to pay cash. Around 16% of people paying cash do so regularly (at least once a week), and 12% of cash payers always pay cash for their bus travel.

[Lynne]

If anyone wants to get rid of their cash, I can send them my address

Lynne

[LondonMix]

This argument is silly. First, paying cash is already banned in central London and has been for years. So all the arguments about how this will impact tourists and people arriving into London from out of town is entirely specious. The tourists etc have figured it out and to their benefit as otherwise they would have paid over the odds.

The argument here isn't about travel only being for people with debit cards. You can buy an Oyster for cash.

I am one of the people who occasionally pay cash when I forget to top up my Oyster and am late for work and can't be bothered to get off the bus. While I like having the option not to be late to work despite my own carelessness I dare say its not a right I expect to have. That kids are more absent minded is probably why they pay cash more often that the rest of us in general.

When only 1% of journeys are cash, keeping all the infrastructure associated with cash payments (having to count down registers, safes, bank transfers etc) for very little revenue becomes less cost effective.

[JohnL]

I heard that oyster will be replaced by bankcards/smartphone app or

a bankcard tech type of oyster for those with no bankcard

or smartphone by the end of this year

[LondonMix]

Also to add to my previous point, TFL are proposing to allow one free journey for those in a pinch that would allow for a negative balance on the Oyster card that could be paid off later.

JohnL-- heard where? I can't see TFL getting rid of the ability to top up an oyster with cash. If they let you carry a balance on your phone through an app, that's great though as its less likely to be forgotten.

[pandrns]

most buses in central London don't accept cash payments on board anyway - you have to get a ticket from a nearby machine, tourists and other people seem to manage fine with this arrangement. Just seems like an extension of this process to me.

[Siduhe]

pandrns Wrote:

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> most buses in central London don't accept cash

> payments on board anyway - you have to get a

> ticket from a nearby machine, tourists and other

> people seem to manage fine with this arrangement.

> Just seems like an extension of this process to

> me.

Except they are getting rid of the machines too.

If TFL would make a clear commitment to give an extra "debit" transaction on an expired or out of money Oyster, that would be helpful and would definitely improve the arguments to go cash-free. At the moment all they will agree is to "investigate the possibility" of the idea.

What is more worrying is if you don't have any cards at all - lost or stolen bag for example. The FAQ make clear in this situation you can't get on the bus unless you fall within a small category of a vulnerable person at risk of crime if the bus doesn't take you.

[LondonMix]

I hear you but that's no different to having your wallet knicked with you cash in general. You have to rely on someone to give you money to get an Oyster in the same way you would need to rely on someone to give you cash to pay the fare.

[Mr Goose]

The oyster card discount, as against the cash price, was always the oyster card's selling point. If you get rid of cash payments, it will just be an incentive for the oyster price to be hiked up.