Driving restrictions Dulwich Village

[malumbu]

  On 02/01/2025 at 16:43, first mate said:

As ever, complete misrepresentation of what has been stated. Why do you insist on doing this? It does not reflect well on you.

The point is you do not have to actually drive in the specific bus lane Rockets refers to to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line- an easy mistake to make at a junction where even you agree the white lines have been extended more than usual.

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Good heavens.  So you are saying it is fine that people who can't steer should be driving.  If you can't steer your vehicle away from a line on the road you shouldn't be driving.  Another apologist for poor drivers.

[Rockets]

  On 02/01/2025 at 17:30, claresy said:

Earl - I live on lordship lane and can assure you there is more congestion and more pollution and buses take much longer, regardless of bus lanes - so it’s not making it better for public transport users or drivers. I - and many others - expressed our views in the appropriate forum of the consultation and they were disregarded so see no point in lobbying anyway

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I do wonder if part of the strategic approach being used by the likes of Southwark is to actually create more congestion. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

  On 02/01/2025 at 17:23, Rockets said:

Ha ha, what utter nonsense - some massive creative licence being applied there on your part Earl. There is a big difference between driving in a bus lane and driving across a bus lane to make a left turn....

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Oh, driving across a bus lane does not involving driving in a bus lane?  

[alice]

It seems none of you have turned that particular corner. It’s a tricky turn, overhill road is very steep and the camber(?) is unusual. It is not an easy turn like the Underhill/ lordship junction.  The argument is petty. Try it yourself by bike or car. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

I have. The suggestion that to make that turn requires one has to enter the bus lane is not serious. People get into the bus lane to undercut queuing traffic and save time. 

Fine, but let’s not pretend it’s unavoidable

[Rockets]

  On 02/01/2025 at 18:05, Earl Aelfheah said:

Oh, driving across a bus lane does not involving driving in a bus lane?  

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TFL affords drivers four car lengths or 20 metres to drive across/in a bus lane when turning left. Why doesn't Southwark council do the same?

[malumbu]

Why should they?  Good on them for having tighter restrictions.  Your argument is similar to saying that all local authorities should adopt the same timings for paid on street parking.  They very much don't 

How does all this affect you in any case beyond your campaigns against the council?  

[Earl Aelfheah]

  On 02/01/2025 at 18:38, Rockets said:

TFL affords drivers four car lengths or 20 metres to drive across/in a bus lane when turning left. Why doesn't Southwark council do the same?

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No it doesn’t. 

TfL does not allow drivers in bus lanes.

  On 02/01/2025 at 18:42, malumbu said:

How does all this affect you in any case beyond your campaigns against the council?  

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I suspect he got caught in the bus lane

[Rockets]

  On 02/01/2025 at 18:46, Earl Aelfheah said:

No it doesn’t. 

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I know it's pantomime season but...oh yes it does....advance warning Earl: I have done my research...;-)

  On 02/01/2025 at 18:42, malumbu said:

Your argument is similar to saying that all local authorities should adopt the same timings for paid on street parking.  They very much don't 

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With good reason - because the confusion and lack of consistency between each authority creates revenue generating opportunities....which local authorities embrace whole halfheartedly....it's pretty shameful

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

OK let’s see where TfL says you can drive in any bus lane when turning left.

I suspect you’re talking about the specific exception where there is a dotted white line and an arrow (indicating that you can move over to turn left). Where there is not one (as in most cases and this specific case), you absolutely cannot drive in the bus lane.

…It does not surprise me that you are getting fines.

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

Did I see anyone complaining when Camden introduced parking restrictions until 8 pm, with drivers getting caught out as Westminster was 6pm in the other side of the road?  And as  I have said before why don't you take up your gripes with the powers that be?  

[Rockets]

  On 02/01/2025 at 19:07, Earl Aelfheah said:

OK let’s see where TfL says you can drive in any bus lane when turning left.

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Earl, do a search for TFL Enforcement Operations Agreement Schedule 2 Appendix 09 – TfL Business Rules.

Check out point 1.15.....what does it say...?

  On 02/01/2025 at 19:39, malumbu said:

Did I see anyone complaining when Camden introduced parking restrictions until 8 pm, with drivers getting caught out as Westminster was 6pm in the other side of the road? 

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Yup, and I bet Camden raised a fair bit of extra revenue with that one...it's madness that local authorities are given the power to do this. I wonder if the police need to retake the authority on this as clearly local authorities are abusing it.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It does not state that you can drive in any bus lane when turning left. Your ‘research’ as usual, involves you reading stuff on Twitter and not understanding the context.

[Rockets]

What does the document say Earl.....?

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

It’s a confidential document laying out guidance for how a private service provider might batch process outsourced appeal decisions in relation to PCNs. It is an appendix to a specific schedule tagt makes up the whole agreement. It is clear that it must be read in context of several other documents. It does not remotely suggest what you have claimed it does, namely that you can drive in a bus lane if you’re turning left. I am not remotely surprise you’ve been fined if you’ve understood otherwise. You need to read TFls guidance to motorists and the Highway Code rather than Twitter
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-of-red-routes/bus-lanes#:~:text=The times of operation and,indicate if this is permitted.

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

Earl, what does point 1.15 say about whether an appeal is accepted or rejected if the vehicle was in a bus lane for less than 20 metres before turning left...;-)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Your ‘research’ technique really does just involve searching for information you want to believe doesn’t it. If you truly think that you can drive in a bus lane when turning left, keep doing it Rocks. But you will get more tickets.

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

 

  On 02/01/2025 at 20:29, Earl Aelfheah said:

It’s a confidential document laying out guidance for how a private service provider might batch process outsourced appeal decisions in relation to PCNs.

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Earl, hardly confidential - it's on the TFL website and you can find it here....https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf

It's clearly guidance from TFL on what is accepted, or not, for an appeal of a PCN and the bus lane one is quite telling isn't it....clearly, despite what you say, TFL does recommend lenience for those who cross a bus lane (for up to 20 metres) to make a left turn.....research and fact checking it's really good and quite enlightening! 😉 

[Earl Aelfheah]

It’s marked ‘in confidence’ and has no doubt been published after an FOI from someone trying to find loop holes for their offending. It absolutely does not suggest that you can use the bus lane if turning left or that you will not get a ticket - rather, that they may not bother pursuing an appeal (although I suspect if you’re doing it regularly that changes). I note that it also states that it must be considered in context of other documents of which this is just an appendix to a schedule). To be clear it is guidance to outsourced enforcement companies processing appeals in bulk. It absolutely does not say you're permitted to drive in the bus lane if you’re turning left. Read TFL guidance to drivers, the signs on the bus lanes themselves, and read the Highway Code. 

This is another example of your searching for snippets of information that you think confirm what you want to believe, whilst ignoring other more relevant guidance, and context. If you insist on driving in bus lanes you will get fined. Suggesting otherwise is extremely misleading and irresponsible.

Edited January 3 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

  On 03/01/2025 at 09:19, Earl Aelfheah said:

This is another example of your searching for snippets of information that you think confirm what you want to believe, whilst ignoring other more relevant guidance, and context.

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Nonsense. What it confirms is that TFL give drivers 20 metres grace to turn left across a bus lane. Southwark don't. Why? Because Southwark are laying traps for drivers to generate revenue to pay for things like vanity project LTNs. End of story.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Drive in a bus lane and you'll get a fine from TFL just as you did from Southwark.

[first mate]

Misrepresentation. Rockets never said he had a fine from Southwark for a violation involving the specific bus lane and left turn under discussion. But you already know that, don't you.

Edited January 3 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

You think he didn't' get a fine for using the bus lane prior to turning into Overhill Road? Maybe he's posted across several threads on behalf of someone else this happened to. OK, I'll rephrase: Drive in a TFL bus lane before turning left, and you'll get a fine from TFL.

Edited January 3 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

  On 03/01/2025 at 13:59, Earl Aelfheah said:

Drive in a bus lane and you'll get a fine from TFL just as you did from Southwark.

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The difference being if you appeal it with TFL and you didn't drive in it/across it for more than 20 metres during a left turn then they will drop the fine.

Southwark won't....they will enforce the fine - if you touch the line you'll get a fine.

And the road design should speak volumes - TFL if giving drivers that 20 metre grace period at the junction of Underhill by breaking the bus lane 20 metres before the turn but Southwark does not at Overhill - in fact Southwark creates a very tight turn at a point of high congestion. And then sticks a camera there. And then fines people. Why? Because these measures are about revenue generation not road safety. Only a fool would try to argue otherwise.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Why don't you appeal the fine from Southwark and see what happens.

There is zero reason to enter the bus lane before turning into Overhill - it's a one way street and the turn is not tight.