Driving restrictions Dulwich Village

[claresy]

I know there have been posts on this before but I'm still not clear and there doesn't appear to be any definitive information online. I've just driven through the Village between 4 and 4.30 and am hoping I won't get fined as it's the school holidays. There seemed to be many other cars going through.  If fines do apply despite the holidays will they definitely be applied or is it a matter of luck? 

[Tlkamk]

Says below it operates Monday to Friday term times, so you should be okay.

https://services.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/school-streets

[claresy]

I really hope you're right! Thank you 🙂 

 

[Cancerian]

You’re allowed to drive through Dulwich village i.e. as if you were driving from the North Dulwich train station to go through the village at any time. It’s just restricted on the other side I.e. if you were driving from the roundabout near Dulwich Picture gallery to go through the village towards say North Dulwich train station then you would get a ticket. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Tlkamk said:

Says below it operates Monday to Friday term times, so you should be okay.

https://services.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/school-streets

This is not correct. The Dulwich Village restrictions are not part of a School Street.

The restrictions apply Monday to Friday at the times specified on the signs. They are not suspended during school holidays.

[Tlkamk]

Thank you for confirming.

[claresy]

Thanks for the replies. I'm still confused! I was driving from Townley Road through the village and down Gallery Road to West Dulwich and back the same way. I guess I'll just have to see. I think they make it deliberately confusing (like most parking and driving restrictions) to gather maximum income from people who misunderstand. 

And as the restrictions are school hours it makes no sense to still apply them in the holidays!

 

[sjsl]

I got caught on a Bank Holiday monday, I assumed it would be treated as a weekend, horrified – I did appeal but got nowhere.

[Rockets]

They are designed with revenue generation in mind. If they confuse and that leads to more PCNs being issued then the council is happy as they then have more money to invest in, amongst other things, LTNs. I am amazed that there isn't an authority providing some oversight on the design of these things but since councils got the power to police these things they have been more than happy to set and bend the rules.

[Cancerian]

4 hours ago, claresy said:

Thanks for the replies. I'm still confused! I was driving from Townley Road through the village and down Gallery Road to West Dulwich and back the same way. I guess I'll just have to see. I think they make it deliberately confusing (like most parking and driving restrictions) to gather maximum income from people who misunderstand. 

And as the restrictions are school hours it makes no sense to still apply them in the holidays!

 

Unfortunately I’m certain you will receive a fine through the post very soon! As someone else has said DV isn’t a school street and for some reason the restrictions are in force all year round, as some of my neighbours found out who have children and were taking them backwards and forwards to school clubs during the school holidays. So you would have been ok to go through the village with the Dulwich Village infants school on your left side and to go through Gallery Road through to West Dulwich. 
Unfortunately coming back the same way isn’t allowed between 8-10am and 3-6pm. Southwark want you to make an even longer car journey all the way round to the South Circular and along Lordship Lane, just when traffic is at its peak!

[claresy]

I guess all I can do is wait and see! I've definitely been that way between 4.30 and 6 without an issue before. I'm pretty sure at least one signs says 3-4.30 not 3-6 to add to the confusion. I generally try to avoid going that way unless it's definitely a safe time but lost track because of the holidays. I struggle to see any benefit except for the council collecting all the fines and possibly the people who live in newly quiet roads. All the other roads (including mine) suffer from additional traffic and additional pollution. 

[sandyman]

I received a fine going through the Townley Road gate at 4.20 on Boxing Day a couple of years ago. Like most people I simply lost track of what day it was over Christmas but that's apparently not an acceptable defence for Southwark Council!

I did have a lengthy email chat with a councillor about lifting restrictions during school holidays but he said this couldn't be done as public/state schools had different term times. I replied by saying that no schools at all were open on bank holidays so why not at least lift restrictions on those days, but didn't receive a reply.

Edited December 31, 2024 by sandyman

[malumbu]

I got caught by the C Charge many years ago driving on Xmas eve, more fool me for assuming that this was the Xmas holiday.  I didn't complain, and put it down to experience.  Owning a car costs a lot of money, and paying the occasional (and now extremely occasional) fine is part of that.

[Rockets]

Can anyone provide a reasonable rational for these restrictions being in place in DV at all....it seems utterly bizarre...and, I suspect, done to satiate the various lobby groups based in Dulwich Village?

[malumbu]

Yes I can.  But the debate is rather repetitive and not sure why there is yet another thread.  Just best to get used to these measures as they are unlikely to go away. Or move.

Here's a nice article about the other Sadik-Khan, former Transport Commissioner in New York who has done much to reclaim the streets from the car in in the other metropolis.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2020/sep/04/janette-sadik-khan-we-must-rethink-our-streets-to-create-the-six-foot-city

[Rockets]

29 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Yes I can. 

Please do share...because for many of us who live here it remains an utter mystery..

[DulvilleRes]

19 hours ago, Rockets said:

They are designed with revenue generation in mind. If they confuse and that leads to more PCNs being issued then the council is happy as they then have more money to invest in, amongst other things, LTNs. I am amazed that there isn't an authority providing some oversight on the design of these things but since councils got the power to police these things they have been more than happy to set and bend the rules.

What is your actual evidence that the Council design the restrictions with revenue generation in mind, and that they are happy to 'bend the rules'? I've not seen a shred, and as such, this allegation looks like culture war/ urban myth nonsense.  

[Rockets]

I refer my good friend to the bus lane camera thread in the other section for how the council set/bend rules to ensure maximum revenue generation.

They may also recall the original placement of the signs on the entrance to Burbage making it impossible for drivers to see them as they approached from Gallery Road and the "errors" that led to signs being placed along Townley with the wrong operating times on them.

But, as one of the lobbyists for these measures, perhaps you can tell us why times closures were necessary in Dulwich Village...what purpose/agenda were they serving? 

Here's what I think. The council knew there was going to be massive displacement of traffic from the DV LTN, as did the Village LTN lobbyists who helped them get it in place, and it was the quid pro quo to appease the council supporters.

Edited Wednesday at 10:09 by Rockets

[claresy]

Of course they're just to generate revenue! There's no logic to them at all - if the restrictions are school hours then why do they apply during holidays? And if they're to decrease pollution or discourage car usage that's not working either. All they do is concentrate it in other areas - such as the constant queues outside Dulwich Village Infants and the Hamlet, not to mention the increased traffic, pollution and much slower buses on roads like Lordship Lane. The signs are obscure and confusing and the consultation was clearly just a box ticking exercise as they disregarded the results completely.  I accept that the occasional fine is part of owning a car but you'd normally expect that in an unfamiliar area or circumstance - the number of local people who are getting caught out by this shows that it isn't clear (unless they're rich enough to not care, which I'm not!). 

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 01/01/2025 at 10:06, Rockets said:

I refer my good friend to the bus lane camera thread in the other section for how the council set/bend rules to ensure maximum revenue generation.

The rules on bus lanes are very clear. If you don't drive in a bus lane, you won't get a fine.

5 hours ago, claresy said:

increased traffic, pollution and much slower buses on roads like Lordship Lane.

Really? Not what the data shows.

If you are concerned with bus speeds on Lordship Lane, then suggest you lobby for extension of the bus lane operating hours. Notable that we currently have Rockets calling for people to drive in bus lanes without getting fined also.

Edited yesterday at 15:48 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

58 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

The rules on bus lanes are very clear. If you don't drive in a bus lane, you won't get a fine.

Really? Not what the data shows.

If you are concerned with bus speeds on Lordship Lane, then suggest you lobby for extension of the bus lane operating hours. Notable that we currently have Rockets calling for people to drive in bus lanes without getting fined also.

As ever, complete misrepresentation of what has been stated. Why do you insist on doing this? It does not reflect well on you.

The point is you do not have to actually drive in the specific bus lane Rockets refers to to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line- an easy mistake to make at a junction where even you agree the white lines have been extended more than usual.

[Earl Aelfheah]

How?

3 minutes ago, first mate said:

your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line- an easy mistake to make at a junction where even you agree the white lines have been extended more than usual.

I have not agreed that at all. It is always that case that if you enter a bus lane you will get fined.

[first mate]

Ah, so you are absolutely scrupulous about this, in your view, a car wheel touching the outside edge of the white demarcation line is exactly the same as driving up the middle of a bus lane and should be penalised in exactly the same way.
 

Yup, definitely about making money for the council by any means possible.

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Notable that we currently have Rockets calling for people to drive in bus lanes without getting fined also.

Ha ha, what utter nonsense - some massive creative licence being applied there on your part Earl. There is a big difference between driving in a bus lane and driving across a bus lane to make a left turn....

[claresy]

Earl - I live on lordship lane and can assure you there is more congestion and more pollution and buses take much longer, regardless of bus lanes - so it’s not making it better for public transport users or drivers. I - and many others - expressed our views in the appropriate forum of the consultation and they were disregarded so see no point in lobbying anyway.