Beware new bus lane camera on Lordship Lane near junction of Overhill Road

[Rockets]

4 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Trust me I am a transport professional working in the field for over a decade including projects with DVSA.

Malumbu, given you wide breadth and depth of experience in this field (and thank you for imparting your wisdom to us) why do you think then that TFL breaks the bus lane 20 metres before the Underhill junction and let's people off a fine if they don't drive across a bus lane for more than 20 metres yet Southwark don't at the Overhill junction 100 metres down the road?

8 minutes ago, malumbu said:

I went out of the way to drive there today. 

Careful, the active travel lobbyists will jump on you for this and expel you from their club, you should have said you cycled there....;-)

[malumbu]

So what do you think about my advice on how to turn on junctions?  I've said already that I am happy for boroughs to have harsher implementation of regulations.  This will encourage better and more responsible driving.  

I don't have to defend myself, but as you asked I was on an errand and went a couple of roads out of my way to check.  And I was right, it is easy not to cross into the bus lane, and indicative of bad habits to do so.   

[first mate]

First para, largely irrelevent to this specific and unusual junction.

Second part, well you knew exactly what to look for didn't you? Forewarned and all that. A travel activist visiting a site to prove a point is not really saying anything persuasive.

Many will be caught out, because the bus lane demarcation lines run on for longer than is usual. In heavy traffic or low light I can easily see how visibility and judgement might be affected.

Edited Friday at 19:05 by first mate

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, malumbu said:

I don't have to defend myself, but as you asked I was on an errand and went a couple of roads out of my way to check.

To be fair if you preach constantly to others about unneccessary car use surely you must expect others to play it back to you when you do it? Are you not opening yourself up to accusations of being somewhat hypocritical? 

It's clear the Southwark junction bus lane and camera placement has been designed with revenue generation in mind.

[malumbu]

Neither of you actually debate but either come back with questions or lob  insults.  I'm pleased that the camera is there and more fool anyone who gets caught.  I've been that fool in the past but learned from it. This is not a difficult junction to avoid the bus lane 

[first mate]

Thought I put a very fair point that you as a travel activist deciding to report back on your 'special' visit to the site to prove to us that this left turn across a bus lane is not a problem, is hardly the best debating point. 

[Rockets]

20 hours ago, malumbu said:

I'm pleased that the camera is there and more fool anyone who gets caught. 

Given your rap sheet for driving offences I am quite surprised you are so supportive of such measures....oh the irony if you got a PCN during your (exploratory yet not very environmentally friendly) detour to assess the road layout so you could share your wisdom on it!

But I am quite disappointed that you have not taken my invitation to share your years of transport professional experience on why the two junctions are so different in layout and enforcement. It would be good to get your expert opinion because I am sure you have come across similar examples.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 02/01/2025 at 17:00, first mate said:

Don't you mean according to what extent the council think people can be suckered into getting fines?

Not exactly being suckered. Drivers are not being fined for "driving near to the while line". A solid white line on a lane means "do not cross" - so use your eyes and don't cross it.

[Rockets]

But DKHB, why does the TFL junction 100 metres up the road break the bus lane line 20 metres ahead of the left turn and the Southwark one about 3 metres ahead of then junction..and then why do Southwark have camera to enforce a fine for clipping any part of the bus lane whilst TFL do not (they dont have a camera at the Underhill junction)....I think we all know the answer don't we? It's vehicular entrapment for the sake of revenue generation for the council.

[malumbu]

2 hours ago, Rockets said:

Given your rap sheet for driving offences I am quite surprised you are so supportive of such measures....oh the irony if you got a PCN during your (exploratory yet not very environmentally friendly) detour to assess the road layout so you could share your wisdom on it!

But I am quite disappointed that you have not taken my invitation to share your years of transport professional experience on why the two junctions are so different in layout and enforcement. It would be good to get your expert opinion because I am sure you have come across similar examples.

I'm the first to admit that I have had a few fines in my life.  Which makes me well qualified to comment.  And the comment on me taking a different route home, +_ 100 metres either way is just silly.  Own up to your mistake rather than blaming others.

[Rockets]

But Malumbu, please share with us your professional opinion on the design and enforcement of the two junctions....let's at least make your detour in your car worthwhile...

[malumbu]

My professional opinion is that you made a mistake and got caught.  I'm not sure whether this was due to bad habits or a temporary lapse.  I also expect that you will be more careful in future 

I'm not a highways engineer so can't comment on junction design except for my personal experience where I don't have any issues.

It is a shame that as a whole drivers cannot be trusted and therefore we have to have cameras and what are often clumsy physical traffic calming measures.  I'd like DfT to ensure more consistency on the latter 

I'm far more interested in bike routes but the thread I started on this subject was ambushed/trolled by a few people who have a general hatred of cyclists so no point in saying more on this forum.

Although spookily  I did write to Southwark in the 90s asking them for a pedestrian crossing on Dulwich Village bt the junction with court Lane due to the school, and to change the priority Carlton/Court Lane.  They declined but twenty years later did that.  I did not ask them to close the Court Lane junction but was pleased when they did this 

Edited Saturday at 23:17 by malumbu

[first mate]

7 hours ago, malumbu said:

My professional opinion is that you made a mistake and got caught.  I'm not sure whether this was due to bad habits or a temporary lapse.  I also expect that you will be more careful in future 

On what grounds is this a 'professional' opinion? Are you a mind reader by trade? Please tell us what it is about your professional training that equips and entitles you to make high-handed accusations like the above?

You cycling activists allow yourselves great latitude to accuse and judge everyone else. I think of the times you have also stated that those that disagree with you have mental health problems or anger issues. It is really distasteful and disturbing that you are prepared to sink so low to try to stand-up the points you make.

[Rockets]

11 hours ago, malumbu said:

My professional opinion is that you made a mistake and got caught. 

Ha ha, if that is the best a self-professed and self-promoted transport professional with, supposedly, years of "transport" experience can come up with is it any surprise these types of interventions are such a shambles? Also love how you repeatedly conclude it was me...jumping to conclusions is something many seem to love to do on the pro-lobby but more often than not conclusions are massively, and conclusively, undermined by facts....which leads me to the whole point of this thread....

It's clear Southwark has designed that junction, and many others, with the sole intent to raise revenue to fund things like LTNs. They go out of their way to lay traps for drivers to bolster their revenue streams. It's clear for all to see.

 

[malumbu]

I am a transport professional who has worked on driving standards.  If you cannot steer your vehicle to avoid a bus lane then you have even fallen into a bad habit - as witnessed by many (may be even most)  who cut the corner when turning at junction;, or you were not paying proper attention, It's irrelevant that you are angry about junction design, difference in approaches between enforcement bodies etc you were rightly issued a fine because of the way you controlled your vehicle.

I have been rightly issued with fines in the past for similar behaviour.  I wasn't happy at the time.   I now own up to this and improved my driving standard.

[Rockets]

But as a transport professional who has worked on driving standards, why do you think that we have two junctions within 100 metres of each other that are designed, policed and enforced in two very separate ways. Surely as someone who has worked on driving standards then you must understand the role consistency of design, policing and enforcement has on improving driving standards? 
 

So why then has Southwark designed their junction in the way they have and decided to put a camera up to police it when TFL has not…..?

I think you know the answer but are just afraid to acknowledge it…..

[malumbu]

I don't give a monkeys.  If anything I'd be happy with TFL adopting the same standard.  Just admit that you made a mistake and let's move on, rather than using this site to express your anger at the authorities.

[Rockets]

11 minutes ago, malumbu said:

I don't give a monkeys. 

Is that your professional opinion? 😉

It's important to warn people of the traps Southwark is laying for drivers to generate funds to pay for vanity projects like Dulwich Square! 

Power to the people! 😉

[Sue]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Is that your professional opinion? 😉

It's important to warn people of the traps Southwark is laying for drivers to generate funds to pay for vanity projects like Dulwich Square! 

Power to the people! 😉

What exactly is your evidence that Southwark are laying "traps" to "generate funds" to pay for "vanity projects"?

 

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Sue said:

What exactly is your evidence that Southwark are laying "traps" to "generate funds" to pay for "vanity projects"?

I refer you to the previous posts on this thread....;-)

[Sue]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

I refer you to the previous posts on this thread....;-)

Evidence, not previous posts 🤣

[Rockets]

Read my first post then look at the two pictures Earl shared of the two junctions on Thursday. The first is the TFL junction, the second is the Southwark junction.

Play spot the difference and then return again to re-read my original post once you have the context from the pictures and then sprinkle in the fact Southwark has camera at their junction (TFL does not) and it will validate my original post. 

Enjoy!

[Earl Aelfheah]

So your evidence that Southwark are laying "traps" to "generate funds" to pay for "vanity projects", is that one bus lane stops slightly shorter than another one, at two entirely different junctions? Underhill is a two way street, with buses turning in and out of it, and which sits at an acute angle from Lordship lane (turning from the left).

It is notable that you have not answered the question about whether you believe the turn into Overhill is impossible, or even difficult to make. Because this is the only question which is remotely relevant to your claim. 

Tfl guidance is not to:

On 23/12/2024 at 13:58, Rockets said:

give you 20 metres or four car lengths grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane but Southwark are not using that and issuing fines for the slightest infraction.

TFL will also fine you for entering a bus lane, except where there is a broken line and an arrow indicating that you can move across. Again, I invite anyone who doubts this to try it and see what happens.

Edited 17 hours ago by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

I did that a few years ago, and yes I got a penalty notice.  I argued that I simply got into the bus lane slightly early before the junction, and that I had not gained any advantage, nor got in the way of a bus.  But that was that.  I've not done it again.

There is a general point in any enforcement that the serial offenders should be targeted rather than those more considerate that make the occasional mistake.  We've all seen those happy to drive at 60 on Brenchley Gardens before the speed trap, or park on pavements/double yellows, zigzags and the like.  Decriminalising speeding would help and giving this responsibility to the local authority rather than police.  A wider issue for government

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

So your evidence that Southwark are laying "traps" to "generate funds" to pay for "vanity projects", is that one bus lane stops slightly shorter than another one, at two entirely different junctions?

Slightly shorter...let's take a look at that and do some proper analysis based on the images you posted...

Underhill Road (TFL) - no camera policing the bus lane

Overhill (Southwark) - a new camera policing the bus lane

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

TFL will also fine you for entering a bus lane, except where there is a broken line and an arrow indicating that you can move across. Again, I invite anyone who doubts this to try it and see what happens.

Yes they will but if you appeal on the grounds that you did not move into the bus lane for more than 20 metres before making a left turn they will let you off. And that is an undeniable fact confirmed by TFL's own document published on their own website. This is why  the Underhill TFL junction breaks the bus lane 20 metres ahead of the junction because drivers have a 20 metre grace period so clearly if you enter the bus lane before than and turn left then there is no ground for appeal.

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

It is notable that you have not answered the question about whether you believe the turn into Overhill is impossible, or even difficult to make. Because this is the only question which is remotely relevant to your claim. 

So, you ask me the question whether you can make the turn at Overhill without clipping the bus lane. Of course you can but here is a question for you - which junction are people more likely to clip the bus lane and receive a fine from the newly installed camera? And why do Southwark not break the bus lane 20 metres ahead of the junction at TFL do?

Of course if Southwark did that there would be no need for the camera and if they had no camera there would be no revenue generated from that junction.

So the weight of evidence very much supports my suggestion that Southwark have designed that bus lane at their junction to create a revenue generating hotspot and if they weren't doing that then why go to the cost of installing a camera - much cheaper would have been to follow TFL's lead and stop the bus lane earlier - would you not agree?

The evidence is there for all to see and I would love to know where that particular camera comes on Southwark's revenue generating camera Top 10! 😉