Beware new bus lane camera on Lordship Lane near junction of Overhill Road

[Earl Aelfheah]

They’re different roads. One is almost a right angle to the main road the other is not. But it’s really irrelevant. The only question that matters is whether or not the turn is difficult without entering the bus lane. If it is, then you might have a point. If it’s not, then it’s all just noise and deflection and (I suspect), sour grapes at getting caught out, slipping up the inside of another vehicle.

[Rockets]

It's not irrelevant at all because, as your first picture aptly demonstrates, TFL breaks the bus lane well in advance of the left turn junction and then continues it after the junction to allow drivers four car lengths or 20 metres to drive across the bus lane.

Southwark does not. And Southwark puts a camera up at that junction. Why? I tell you why, because they want to generate revenue from unsuspecting drivers turning left and clipping the bus lane.

There is no other explanation. It's council-led revenue generation and absolutely an abuse of the powers given to local authorities.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Overhill road is one way. Underhill is multidirectional and has buses turning in and out of it. It is also at a 90 degree angle from the main road and on the approach to where Lordship Lane splits (some cars going straight on, others moving over to turn right onto Sydenham Hill). They are entirely different layouts. TfL considers the circumstances of the specific road.

Of course it’s irrelevant to what Southwark judge to be appropriate.

Do you believe the turn is difficult to make without entering the bus lane? 

Edited Thursday at 19:52 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

15 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Overhill road is one way. Underhill is multidirectional and has buses turning in and out of it. It is also at a 90 degree angle from the main road and on the approach to where Lordship Lane splits (some cars going straight on, others moving over to turn right onto Sydenham Hill). They are entirely different layouts. TfL considers the circumstances of the specific road.

Nah, not buying it. I think it is because Southwark is hellbent on raising as much revenue as possible from motorists to help fund vanity projects like Dulwich Square.

The evidence is very compelling don't you think? I mean your own photo speaks volumes in the breaking of the bus lane well in advance of the left turn at Underhill that TFL manages yet Southwark have half a car's length break ahead of the one at Overhill...and Southwark saying any breaking of the bus lane line is deemed a punishable offence....and a recently placed enforcement camera just at that spot...the evidence certainly suggests I may have more than a strong case that Southwark is setting a trap for motorists.

I mean, putting a camera up there  probably cost a fair bit...why else did they suddenly chose that spot? 

Cher ching...get that cash rolling in to supplement the millions they get from other strategically placed cameras...

The AA quite rightly voiced concerns about handing power over to local authorities ahead of it happening and they were spot on - the power is clearly being abused and has nothing to do with traffic management or saftey but all to do with revenue generstion. Kind of shameful for a supposedly socialist authority like Southwark to be targetting their constituents like this. I wonder how many working people have been entrapped this way - quite a lot I suspect?

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Do you believe the turn is difficult to make without entering the bus lane? 

Did you get a fine? Were you passing a vehicle on the left at the time?

[Rockets]

No I believe the council is over-zealously targetting motorists in the pursuit of generating revenue to fritter on vanity projects like Dulwich Square and go to great lengths to convince people that they are not doing so folks come onto public forums like this to defend them and claim it's not about generating revenue - to be fair they had managed to convince you these revenues were not spent on LTNs and a little bit of research massively undermined that position.

Do you think they are not abusing the powers handed to them and that this is fair and reasonable, especially in light of the way TFL manages it?

Edited Thursday at 20:35 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

I believe you got a fine because you drove in a bus lane. It’s a no more complicated than that.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you were passing a vehicle on the left at the time (as that’s usually how people get fined there, and you’ve dodged the question).

Rather than just admit a mistake, you’re deflecting and indulging in conspiracy nonsense (colour me shocked).

[Rockets]

Here's TFl guidance on how to police bus lane infractions when crossing them to turn.....one wonders why Southwark does not follow the same guidance....

 

 

Edited Thursday at 23:43 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

That is not:

9 hours ago, Rockets said:

TFl guidance on how to police bus lane infractions when crossing them to turn

Your method of ‘research’ as you call it, is actually just classic cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Telling people that they can enter a bus lane if turning left is untrue and irresponsible.

Edited Friday at 09:31 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

It is so telling that you'd much rather focus on this, another opportunity to charge others with "confirmation bias" and "cherry picking" but you and the rest of the LTN lobby are silent on the relationship between parking revenue and funding of LTNs. I wonder if you can get something about the laws of physics into this also- another of your standard responses.

You are very quick to accuse others of playing fast and loose with the truth but, again, you have twisted what Rockets has said. He is not advocating driving in bus lanes and you know it; he is saying that the chosen use of bus lane demarcation lines by the council seems to deliberately increase the risk of cars clipping the white line as they turn left, because this bus lane is longer than usual and in certain traffic conditions it may be harder to judge where the line ends. He also points out that this is the turning Southwark Council have chosen to monitor with a camera. 

No doubt you and your fellows in the council might argue that the camera is warranted but, if you/they genuinely want to reduce violations why not give a bit more length on the turn? Why make it unusually short?

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 minutes ago, first mate said:

you and the rest of the LTN lobby are silent on the relationship between parking revenue and funding of LTNs

I'm not part of an LTN lobby and this thread is about bus lanes. 

If you want to follow Rockets advice and drive in bus lanes, then be my guest. I would advise avoiding it though, which really isn't difficult to do.

[first mate]

Oh yes, but it seems many of these things are interlinked, doesn't it. Now we know CPZ and parking fines fund LTNs, maybe revenue from driving in bus lanes also goes into this pot?

No, of course you are not part of an LTN lobby😉

Edited Friday at 10:44 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

33 minutes ago, first mate said:

Oh yes, but it seems many of these things are interlinked, doesn't it. Now we know CPZ and parking fines fund LTNs, maybe revenue from driving in bus lanes also goes into this pot?

No, of course you are not part of an LTN lobby😉

Have you still not read the regulations around how this income is spent? It's not secret. You haven't 'uncovered' anything. Yes, any surplus generated can be used for public realm improvements, road safety measures and other things - just read the links if you're actually interested. But this is all irrelevant. There is a far simpler question one can ask to determine whether the bus lane is part of a huge conspiracy or not - is it impossible, or even difficult to turn from Lordship Lane into Overhill Road (a one-way street) without driving in the bus lane? It clearly is not. The reason people enter the bus lane is to undertake queuing traffic. If you decided to use the bus lane to do that, then you deserve to be fined. The rest is noise.

19 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Overhill is a one way street, so you can turn right into the middle of it. I defy anyone to look at the picture above and claim that this is a difficult turn to make, or that there is any reason to drive in the bus lane.

Edited Friday at 11:17 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Your method of ‘research’ as you call it, is actually just classic cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Ha ha...I say TFL has this policy, someone says no they don't, I then prove that TFL do indeed say that then apparently that's confirmation bias....go figure...

It's clear some people don't like it when people do actual fact checking! 😉

[Earl Aelfheah]

...all this because you got caught in a bus lane and can't just own it.

[first mate]

Hilarious. You have to resort to personal attacks; nowhere else to go. We have seen this before with the pro LTN lobby if you cannot debate with facts and evidence, then go low, seems part of the playbook.
 

 

Edited Friday at 11:25 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

Not a personal attack. Rockets has admitted believing that TFL 'rules' are that you can drive in a bus lane to turn left. This is simply untrue. You can read the signs, their guidance to drivers on their website and the relevant rules in the highway code. He seems to think it's 'unfair' that Southwark have fined him, and that TFL would not have. Again, this is not true.

What he has done is search for information (in this case finding an appendix, to a schedule in an agreement with a third party enforcement agent) that he thinks 'proves' that he was in the right to be in a bus lane. But of course he was not. There is a big difference from the rules in place and the circumstances under which a LA decides it's worth the time and cost of pursuing an appeal (and possibly legal action) against a traffic offender. It's (another) example of Rockets searching for snippets of information that he thinks confirms what he would like to believe, whilst ignoring other more relevant guidance, and all relevant context.

If you insist on driving in TFL bus lanes to make a left turn you will get fined. Suggesting otherwise is extremely misleading and irresponsible. But if you would like to try it first mate and see what happens, then please be my guest.

Edited Friday at 11:34 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

7 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Rockets has admitted believing that TFL 'rules' are that you can drive in a bus lane to turn left. This is simply untrue.

Again, this is not what I have said at all. I have been very clear what TFL says about turning left across a bus lane and what they determine to be grounds for successful appeal. The whole point of the thread was to demonstrate that Southwark don't allow those grounds for appeal and have taken a different approach to road design and my conclusion was that they are doing that for the purposes of revenue generation to fund things like LTNs.

I am sure a lot of other people will see it that way too. Some others just don't like it when their narrative and stated position is undermined by actual,  undeniable, facts. But this seems to be page 1 of the pro-lobby handbook - never admit you might be wrong and if you think you might be then do all you can to deflect, deny and demonise. 

[first mate]

It is a personal attack. You have accused him of doing something and have asserted that is his motivation for the thread. Where did Rockets say Southwark had fined him?

In making your personal attack you have also attempted to twist and misrepresent. Clipping a bus lane demarcation line as you turn across the end of the bus lane is not the same as driving in a bus lane.

You have form on accusing others of making things up, but here is an example of you doing just that. Where exactly has Rockets said he was fined at this bus lane?

Edited Friday at 11:49 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

I have been very clear what TFL says about turning left across a bus lane and what they determine to be grounds for successful appeal.

This is what you said:

On 23/12/2024 at 13:58, Rockets said:

TFL guidance is that they give you 20 metres or four car lengths grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane but Southwark are not using that and issuing fines for the slightest infraction.

TFL guidance is not that they give you 20 metres grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane. Try it. You will get fined (again).

Edited Friday at 13:35 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

11 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

TFL guidance is not that they give you 20 metres grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane. Try it. You will get fined (again).

And when you appeal as long as you turned within 20 metres they will accept your appeal and rescind the fine....because they give you 20 metres grace when turning left into a junction across a bus lane.....it's there in black and white on the document on TFL's website.

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Do it. Drive into the bus lane before turning left and see if TFL issue you with a fine, exactly as Southwark did. Or alternatively, just don't drive in the bus lane.

Edited Friday at 13:55 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

There you go again. Blatant misrepresentation. Rockets did not say drive 'into', he said 'across' and for the very specific example under discussion, I think this means across the top of where the white demarcation line ends, so tyres clip the white line. Altogether different from driving into the bus lane.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I defy anyone to look at the picture above and claim that there is any reason to cross the bus lane unless you're driving in it before making the turn into Overhill.

Overhill is a one way street and the turn is wide.

Edited Friday at 14:23 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

I went out of the way to drive there today.  Easy to turn left without crossing the line.  Most drivers adopt the bad habit of cutting the corner when turning at junctions.  It's the way your eyes want you to steer, so doing it properly, a near right angle, is unnatural and needs to be practiced.  It's how you would have driven when you past your test.  It is one of the most common bad habits.  Trust me I am a transport professional working in the field for over a decade including projects with DVSA.