Beware new bus lane camera on Lordship Lane near junction of Overhill Road

[Rockets]

....it's pinging anyone who even puts one wheel inside the bus lane as they turn left onto Overhill.

TFL guidance is that they give you 20 metres or four car lengths grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane but Southwark are not using that and issuing fines for the slightest infraction.

Southwark's manta seems to be....If You Touch The Line You Get A Fine and a lot of people are falling foul of it as the gap from the solid bus lane line and the hash marks for the pedestrian crossing is really small (interesting that Southwark did not put a broken line ahead of the junction which some are suggesting is deliberate to create a revenue-generating fine hot-spot).

[first mate]

Proof, if proof were needed, that it is all about making money. If you drive in a bus lane that is one thing, but to brush or touch the line and still get fined is altogether different.

[Rockets]

Absolutely. Clearly the council has laid a revenue-generating trap and I bet it is raking it in. The ludicrous thing is that if you did the same at the junction of Underhill 100 metres further up the road TFL would not have a problem with that. How are drivers supposed to know when there is no consistency?

How can councils be allowed to set their own rules, over-zealously police it to levels not matched by TFL and not then admit it is about targetting drivers for revenue-generation?

Edited December 24, 2024 by Rockets

[malumbu]

Wow yet another thread demonising Southwark and putting drivers first.

[first mate]

Why are you so very protective of a council that is not even yours? Anyone would think you worked for them 😉

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Wow yet another thread demonising Southwark and putting drivers first.

No Malumbu,  a thread highlighting how Southwark council makes it's own rules in the pursuit of generating revenue from motorists and ignores the guidance set by the authority responsible for roads in London - namely TFL.

Why do you think Southwark does that? I will tell you why, because I know you will never answer, because they do it to maximise the revenue generated by such cameras. 

Southwark Council is laying traps to generate revenue from drivers. In fact, they are entrapping drivers in their pursuit of revenue generation.

It was this sort of behaviour that people were concerned about when the power to police was handed over to local authorities- that they would abuse the power they had been given and it is quite clear they are doing exactly that. 

Happy to discuss but I have a sneaky feeling you won't want to....

Edited January 1 by Rockets

[malumbu]

You only pay if you drive in a bus lane.  The level of discretion is up to the enforcement body,  If you have a problem then complain to the enforcement body, go through their complaints process/ombudsman, your MP or the Transport Secretary,  Much better use of your time.  Then report back.

Have you ever been fined for driving in a bus lane? I have, and whilst I grumped about it at the time as it was near to the end, I learned from the experience, and now avoid driving in bus lanes.  Helps that I rarely drive.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, when you drove in a bus lane were you 20 metres or four car lengths from the end of the bus lane and turning left into a junction off the bus lane? If so TFL would rescind any fine as they would deem that OK as you were turning left. 

Southwark Council says it is not OK and if you touch the line you get a fine.

Why do you think that might be? 

[sandyman]

Just because you are only fined if you 'break the rules' doesnt mean they arent also 'revenue-generating traps' - see also thread about bus gate fines in school holidays. Of course you could follow the rules and avoid the fines but why are they fining drivers in the school hols when the hours the bus gates apply clearly imply that they are there to restrict term time traffic. 

[malumbu]

Whether you think they are justified or not them is the rules so perhaps move onto an issue where you can make a difference.  You are whistling in the wind on this, ULEZ, CPZs, LTNs etc.  Unless Reform get in, in 2029.  God help us all.... 

[Rockets]

But you have to agree that the powers given to local authorities to issue PCNs for things like bus lane and yellow box infringements does seem to be being abused so they can generate more revenue from drivers. Does it not? Is it not slightly odd that TFL rules say one thing and Southwark rules say another…..100 metres further up the road and TFL rules apply….how on earth are motorists supposed to know whose rules apply and at what point….it’s utter madness….like the yellow line rules which always were easy to understand until local authorities were allowed to determine their own rules.

Such high revenue generating traps are clearly being laid to catch unsuspecting motorists and using them for revenue generation to fund vanity projects like Dulwich Square. The positioning of the camera at that junction suggests the council knows exactly what it is doing and has designed it to catch people turning left onto Overhill.

it is utterly shameful and someone really needs to be held to account. The fact that TFL gives some limited leeway for those turning left across a bus lane and the council doesn’t speaks volumes - just 100 metres up the road different rules apply….

 

[malumbu]

You only pay if you break the rules, why is this a problem? 

[Penguin68]

When the rules set are unfair and do not reflect rules of a similar authority which allow e.g. legal turns into side streets with normal safe driving behaviour then they are designed not to penalise illegal activity but to raise revenues in ways not common or normal, or, actually possibly, legal. Cars are not designed, or safe, to make 90 degree (right angle) turns, which is what is required here if you are to proceed 'in the rules'. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

The rules are that you don't drive in a bus lane. There is a sign stating that it's in operation at all times and that there are enforcement cameras. It is not difficult to turn left without entering the bus lane, there is plenty of room to turn. Unless you're trying to squeeze pass cars on the left to save time, there is not really any reason to enter the bus lane.

It sucks to get a fine, but not difficult to avoid.  

...also, are these cameras new? I believe there has always been enforcement cameras on this spot. 

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

Earl, Overhill junction not Underhill...you've used a picture from the Underhill junction.

That's the TFL one at the junction of which probably explains why the bus lane finishes 4 car lengths or 20 metres ahead of the junction.

Now compare it to the one at the council revenue trap at the Overhill junction....you see the difference?

Two junctions 100 metres apart but two very different intentions from the authorities managing them...one is road management the other revenue generation.

P.S. thanks for helping illustrating my point for me!

[Earl Aelfheah]

You're quite right! I thought you were talking about a different junction.

Looking at the Overhill one, the bus lane does run much closer to the junction, although the turn is also easier / at less of an acute angle

Still very difficult to see how one would need to, or could accidentally enter the bus lane when turning left. 

Not sure the photo above is 

On 23/12/2024 at 17:06, first mate said:

Proof, if proof were needed, that it is all about making money

Again, it sucks to get a fine, but not difficult to avoid. 

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

At a guess, cars looking to turn left may, based on other experiences of taking a left turn across a bus lane area, expect a longer line free area before the junction. Harder to judge in lower light. The key point made earlier by Rockets is that at this particular left turn you do not have to enter the bus lane to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line.

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 23/12/2024 at 13:58, Rockets said:

....it's pinging anyone who even puts one wheel inside the bus lane as they turn left onto Overhill.

Always the case that if you enter a bus lane you are liable for a fine. this is not specific to this bus lane. 

On 23/12/2024 at 13:58, Rockets said:

TFL guidance is that they give you 20 metres or four car lengths grace if turning left into a junction across a bus lane but Southwark are not using that and issuing fines for the slightest infraction.

My understanding is that there  are no definitive rules for the termination of a bus lane in advance of a left turn into a side street. Each site is considered on an individual basis dependent on the site-specific circumstances. But more importantly, Tfl guidance only applies to tfl managed roads. The relevant question is why you think it is not possible to turn comfortably into the side road without entering the bus lane?

On 23/12/2024 at 13:58, Rockets said:

Southwark are not using that and issuing fines for the slightest infraction.

You think that TFL don't issue fines for similar 'infractions'?

19 minutes ago, first mate said:

At a guess, cars looking to turn left may, based on other experiences of taking a left turn across a bus lane area, expect a longer line free area before the junction. Harder to judge in lower light.

You think people can't see the bus lane?

19 minutes ago, first mate said:

The key point made earlier by Rockets is that at this particular left turn you do not have to enter the bus lane to get a penalty, your vehicle wheel just needs to touch the white line.

You think this is the key point? Does Tfl ignore people crossing into a bus lane if they only do it a little bit? I think this thread is likely just about Rockets getting a fine entirely avoidably and not taking it on the chin.

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

4 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Each site is considered on an individual basis dependent on the site-specific circumstances

Don't you mean according to what extent the council think people can be suckered into getting fines?  For you to put someone that drives close to a white line, into the same category as someone that drives up a bus lane is interesting.

[Earl Aelfheah]

8 minutes ago, first mate said:

Don't you mean according to what extent the council think people can be suckered into getting fines? 

No I don't. The side road is not at a right angle to the main road. It is very easy to make that turn and there is absolutely zero reason to cross into the bus lane.

8 minutes ago, first mate said:

For you to put someone that drives close to a white line, into the same category as someone that drives up a bus lane is interesting.

I haven't done that have I. No one has claimed that Southwark are issuing fines for driving close to a white line, but rather for crossing the white line (another way of saying, driving in in the bus lane). My guess is that people are being fined for moving into the lane before turning. Likely to squeeze pass cars on the left, make the turn sooner and save time. 

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

33 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

You think that TFL don't issue fines for similar 'infractions'?

But TFL, as you so aptly demonstrated with your original picture, give cars turning a good distance to do so without infraction upon the bus lane.

 

So the question is, who do Southwark not do the same? You keep telling us that these measures are not about revenue generation yet in a 100 metre stretch of road we see two very different approaches - one of which is clearly designed to catch drivers infringing. And one where the council has decided to strategically place a camera. I bet that spot is a big revenue earner for the council, catching people clipping the bus lane as they turn left into Overhill, especially during times of queuing traffic.

More money for their vanity projects like the Dulwich Square LTN to keep their local cheerleaders happy!

 

Edited January 2 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

So do you not think it is not possible, or that it is even difficult, to make that turn without entering the bus lane?

 

[malumbu]

Thanks for posting the picture Earl.  I've cycled on this piece of road 100s of times.  I've driven on it too.  The only drivers I have seen in it were doing this on purpose so I welcome the camera.  Absolutely no issue with turning left here without touching the bus Lane.  You'd only do this if you cut the corner on the junction, and/or were speeding.  Poor driving and you'd fail your test for not being able to control your vehicle. Really don't understand the fuss. 

Edited January 2 by malumbu

[Earl Aelfheah]

@Rockets Are you really claiming that the intention of that bus lane is to raise money?

Edited January 2 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

That was not my question, my question was why do Southwark chose to not take the same approach as TFL?

I think you know the answer to that...;-)