LTN Discussion

[Rockets]

Latest OneDulwich update.

One Dulwich

 

Campaign Update | 22 Dec

Legal cases against London LTNs

 

On 17 December, the High Court ruled in favour of Tower Hamlets Council after a legal challenge over its decision to remove three LTNs. (The Mayor’s statement highlights concerns about traffic displacement, delays to bus services and the impact on the emergency services and those with disabilities.)

 

Meanwhile, in south London, West Dulwich Action Group in Lambeth are expecting to hear the date of their judicial review in January, as are Open Our Roads, who are challenging Croydon Council for introducing LTNs as a revenue-raising exercise. One Dulwich is in touch with both campaign groups.

 

Dulwich Village junction re-design

 

Although the redesign of the Dulwich Village junction has been completed, the concrete road block on Court Lane has still not been removed to allow emergency vehicles through. We have asked the Council to explain why.

 

We have also asked why Blue Badge parking spaces have been moved much farther away from the shops, and why the Council has still not introduced signage, road markings or a speed limit to prevent collisions between cyclists and pedestrians.

 

Separately, we have been advised in writing that the missing road sign for Court Lane will shortly be attached to the new lamppost outside 1 Court Lane.

 

We send you our best wishes for the festive period, and our thanks for all your support in 2024

ENDS...

Perhaps pro-LTN cheerleader in chief Jon Burke maybe sheds some light on why Southwark Council are so reluctant to allow emergency vehicle access at the DV junction....or is it just a case of too soon Jon....honestly....how rabidly blinkered do you have to be to post something like that?

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by Rockets

[CPR Dave]

What a nasty little man

[first mate]

Whilst looking into how the Dulwich Village road changes are funded, I came across something that suggests Southwark do not consider it a 'true' LTN. I am not clear what that means exactly but guess the Council have allowed themselves even more wriggle room for its imposition.

[ab29]

Campaign Update | 12 Jan

Dulwich Village junction: still no access for emergency vehicles Access through the junction for emergency vehicles is vital for the Dulwich area as a whole. In February 2024, the London Ambulance Service agreed to a trial closure of Calton Avenue. Five months after the bollard went in, this is still blocked. Court Lane, the other arm of the junction, is also still blocked, despite promises that it would be reopened once the building work had finished. We have emailed [email protected] to ask why the delay continues – please do the same.  Southwark report shows Dulwich LTN fines are vital income boost Southwark’s Parking Annual Monitoring Report 2023-24 makes interesting reading. (The word ‘parking’ is confusing here as the report also covers the Moving Traffic PCNs – or Penalty Charge Notices – that include LTN fines.) The report shows a 500% increase in Moving Traffic PCNs issued in Southwark in 2023-24 compared with 2019-20, the last year before the Dulwich LTNs were introduced. Overall, Southwark made an estimated £8 million from nearly 140,000 Moving Traffic PCNs across the borough in 2023-24. The report doesn’t break down its figures by ward or area, but we know from a recent FOI that the ANPR cameras in Dulwich Village led to 35,621 PCNs being issued in 2023, and 16,963 between January and August 2024, so Dulwich fines are making a significant contribution to the borough total. Southwark says that any surplus after costs is reinvested in the highway network (see ‘expenditure description’ in table 7, including more than £6 million in ‘Environment reserve’). However, this reinvested extra cash means that Southwark needs to spend less from central funds. In other words, the Dulwich LTNs are an important revenue generator. Is this perhaps the reason why Southwark is so reluctant to make the signage for the LTNs less confusing? Legal challenge against LTN in West Dulwich The West Dulwich Action Group are taking legal action in the High Court against Lambeth’s LTN. The hearing is on 12 February. For more information, and to support them financially, go to https://gofund.me/7d97511f. Road sign at Dulwich Village junction replaced Finally, one small piece of good news: the Court Lane road sign on the lamppost outside 1 Court Lane has been replaced after the last one went missing during the building works. Thanks to Southwark’s Principal Lighting Engineer for making this happen. Best wishes for 2025,

The One Dulwich Team

[Bicknell]

whats the 6 million for? thats alot of spare cash

[Earl Aelfheah]

16 hours ago, ab29 said:

...increase in Moving Traffic PCNs issued in Southwark in 2023-24 compared with 2019-20

We had national lock downs in 2019-20 and 2020-21. If you look at PCNs issued across the last three years (post COVID), the picture is more mixed. Feels a little mischievous to pick that year for comparison doesn't it?: 

2021/22 242,775 ⬆️
2022/23 196,285 ⬇️
2023/24 264,259 ⬆️

Amazing how the extremely opaque 'One Dulwich' organisation has all the same talking points to one of the posters on this forum.

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[Bicknell]

but compare to 2019-20  and its all much much higher. thats the point. pcns now bring in lots of cash

[Earl Aelfheah]

56 minutes ago, Bicknell said:

but compare to 2019-20  and its all much much higher. thats the point. pcns now bring in lots of cash

Surely you can think of a reason fewer PCN's may have been issued during lockdown?

I mean I know that some people were driving to Barnard Castle, but generally the number of car journeys dropped dramatically.

18 hours ago, ab29 said:

In other words, the Dulwich LTNs are an important revenue generator

How is the Dulwich LTN a revenue generator exactly? The arguments that parking fines are being used to fund LTNs and that LTNs are a revenue generator, are not logically consistent.

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[Bicknell]

see page 4 of report   Southwark says moving traffic pcns increased mostly as  result of the scool street programme. 

Parking Annual Monitoring Report 2023-24

there must be alot of school streets

[Earl Aelfheah]

Is there a reason we have yet another LTN thread? Also, any chance anyone knows who runs ‘one Dulwich’, or why their missives are constantly being reposted on this forum, despite people being able to sign up to receive them if they're interested?

21 minutes ago, Bicknell said:

see page 4 of report   Southwark says moving traffic pcns increased mostly as  result of the scool street programme. 

Parking Annual Monitoring Report 2023-24

there must be alot of school streets

Thanks. I suspect most people are in favour of school streets.

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[Bicknell]

think your right that people in favour of scool streets. but 26k pcns from school streets in 2019/20 to 139.5K pcns 2023/24 - thats alot of school streets - didnt know so many were put in

£2 million spent on LTN Costs (Table 7). Was that from surplus from parking or from scool strrets?

Parking Annual Monitoring Report 2023-24

 

[Rockets]

46 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Is there a reason we have yet another LTN thread?

Because someone managed to get the old one locked!

 

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

We had national lock downs in 2019-20 and 2020-21. If you look at PCNs issued across the last three years (post COVID), the picture is more mixed. Feels a little mischievous to pick that year for comparison doesn't it?: 

If you look at the figure pre-Covid the picture looks even worse for the council......

Here is the data:

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Bicknell said:

think your right that people in favour of scool streets. but 26k pcns from school streets in 2019/20 to 139.5K pcns 2023/24 - thats alot of school streets - didnt know so many were put in

£2 million spent on LTN Costs (Table 7). Was that from surplus from parking or from scool strrets?

Parking Annual Monitoring Report 2023-24

 

I read that as a 39% increase from the school streets programme - roughly 39K? I think there are around 24 school streets in Southwark, so that's around 1,625 fines per street over the course of a year - so a couple a week on average per school street? Have I done the maths right there? Does seem like quite a lot. 

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Because someone managed to get the old one locked!

If you look at the figure pre-Covid the picture looks even worse for the council......

Here is the data:

OK, that's a fairer comparison. Does this 'look worse' though? If you read the Council's own narrative, it appears that the increases are down to better enforcement (more cameras installed to stop people driving in bus lanes), more enforcement officers employed to ticket those who have parked illegally and the introduction (and subsequent enforcement of) School Streets. If you're not going to enforce bus lanes or parking restrictions, then what's the point of having them? And if you do want to argue against them, make that case (rather than supporting them in principle, but not in practice).

There are 430 million miles travelled on Southwark roads each year. If there are only 264,259 PCNs being issued, that suggests that the vast majority of drivers manage without getting caught in bus lanes, driving through a school street, or parking illegally.

1 hour ago, Bicknell said:

£2 million spent on LTN Costs (Table 7). Was that from surplus from parking or from scool strrets?

Don't think it's hypothecated in this way. Any surplus from PCNs generally goes into a fund that can be allocated for (amongst other things) improvements to roads and the public realm. I suspect that some of that budget was used to landscape the square / improve the layout.

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

...why their [OneDulwich] missives are constantly being reposted on this forum, despite people being able to sign up to receive them if they're interested?

Any answer to this? Are there other organisations who's subscription email updates we want to start regularly posting on the forum? 

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I read that as a 39% increase from the school streets programme - roughly 39K? I think there are around 24 school streets in Southwark, so that's around 1,625 fines per street over the course of a year - so a couple a week on average per school street? Have I done the maths right there? Does seem like quite a lot. 

Just read this back and I have definitely not done the maths right 🤣

Assuming that there were around 39K PCNs related to school streets (this isn't totally clear - the report says the increase is 'mostly' down to SS), there are actually 29 school streets in Southwark. So it's around 1,345 issued per SS.

So that's around 3.7 a day on average. Does seem high!

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[CPR Dave]

I'm in favour of school streets. 

I wished they worked though.

26,000 driving through the school streets and receiving penalty notices suggests that something has gone terribly wrong. 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 minutes ago, CPR Dave said:

I'm in favour of school streets. 

I wished they worked though.

26,000 driving through the school streets and receiving penalty notices suggests that something has gone terribly wrong. 

 

Yeh, I agree. This does seem ridiculously high. Perhaps the increased enforcement will help (probably not)?!

Living near a local primary I do see some appalling behaviour in the mornings by drivers - a real lack of care for children's safety sometimes. 

...no idea why we're having this discussion in the (latest) LTN section.

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[CPR Dave]

Earl I don't think your maths is correct. 

My local school is open for 204 days a year. If the schools are all the same, then its 26,000 PCNs / 24 Schools = 1083 PCNs per school. That works out at 5.3 PCNs per school per day.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Ah yes, you're right. Sorry, quick maths on my phone, not working out for me. I think it's more than 26,000 though and there are 29 school streets, not 24 (that was my mistake originally, apologies). Either way, it's a lot!

[edited to add]

A quick google picked up this from Direct Line https://www.directlinegroup.co.uk/en/news/brand-news/2023/03022023.html

Suggests a very different figure for school street fines issued by Southwark. According to an FOI, there were only 275 PCNs issued in Southwark in relation to School Streets for 2022. Something doesn't add up!

Edited January 13 by Earl Aelfheah

[Bicknell]

so when   Southwark says on p. 4 of the report htat moving traffic pcns increased mostly as  result of the scool street programme, that doesnt add up.

so increase was result of something else... 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Possibly. Or the response to foi was incorrect (or reported incorrectly) 🤷‍♂️

All a bit weird.

[CPR Dave]

Even if the numbers are correct, there is a huge problem with the schemes if three or four people are driving past the signs every school day in what is, effectively, a 90 minute restriction. 

[malumbu]

I don't believe that there are that many people who are not aware, or not looking at the sign.  Most people will be doing a routine journey - school run (I can't pretend it doesn't exist) or driving to work (ditto).  They will not be repeat offenders.

[Earl Aelfheah]

11 hours ago, CPR Dave said:

Even if the numbers are correct, there is a huge problem with the schemes if three or four people are driving past the signs every school day in what is, effectively, a 90 minute restriction. 

Yeah, I agree. If I were to take a guess, I would assume the numbers in the Southwark report are probably the right ones (as opposed to the FOI response). If so it's a lot of people getting fined every school day, like you say.

[Bicknell]

or maybe not school street  programme at all. maybe big big increase in Moving pcns becajuse of something else

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 13/01/2025 at 17:39, Earl Aelfheah said:

Possibly. Or the response to foi was incorrect (or reported incorrectly) 🤷‍♂️

All a bit weird.

Just got a (very quick) response after I emailed Southwark on this.

In response to the question: “Please could you let me know how many PCNs were issued in relation to Southwark School Streets in the last year?”, they confirmed there were 28,619.

 

Edited January 15 by Earl Aelfheah