Motorcyclists safety in London: ASLs

[Zombiemonkey]

Am I the only person here who thinks it?s about time that ?cycling boxes? or ASLs should officially made available to motorcyclists? We hear all about cyclists? safety, all of the time, and hear all about motorists views too, but I find that in London, nobody ever talks about motorcyclists. Now, I won?t even start on the (money making) business of bus lanes? but right now, it?s all about this law enforcement update. From today, you can get a ?100 fine and 3 POINTS ON YOUR DRIVING LICENSE (hence insurance fees going up?) for using cycling boxes in London. As usual, not a single mention of motorcyclists in the debate. Our safety is put at risk here. What are your thoughts about it?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/60-fines-and-cctv-crackdown-on-drivers-who-stop-in-bike-boxes-at-traffic-lights-8635559.html

[Zombiemonkey]

some interesting views on this blog:

http://ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339619

[LadyDeliah]

I will be glad when these measures are in place as it will improve safety for cyclists. Not sure what the answer is re motorcyclists though as it's pretty scary having motorbikes whooshing past you when the lights turn green.

I have seen car and van drivers nearly take out motorcyclists and cyclists by turning left, cutting accross the bus lane without checking, quite a few times. I agree that motorcyclists are very exposed on the roads, but putting them in with cyclists might not be great for cyclists safety.

Something does need to be done though to protect all vulnerable road users from careless/dangerous car/van etc drivers.

[Applespider]

Half the motorcyclist and every scooter rider in London seem to use them anyway. They are there to allow cyclists to move off before vehicles since they don't have the same acceleration and speed. Motorcyclists don't have that problem - they can zoom out of danger at lights - although I accept that we share other risks like SMIDSYs.

I'm in two minds on it. In one way, it's worse when a motorcyclist filters to the front and then blocks the way into the ASL for any cyclist coming along behind them. In that case, I'd prefer the motorcyclist to go into the ASL so that the cyclist can get in too. I'm not sure whether there's any scope to say that motorcyclist can use them but perhaps only the very far right of the box since that's often not used by cyclists. That may however cause problems on those junctions where cyclists do actually want to turn right and need to be there to be safe.

I agree with LadyDelilah though - it can be terrifying when motorcyclists come flying past you in a bus lane. The relative speed differences (even when the cyclist is doing lifesaver checks)can be scary. I'd like there to be speed limits in the bus lanes for motorcyclists so that no-one in them can do over 25mph. I might even take that as a trade off for then allowing them in the ASL.

One other thing about if they were legitimately allowed in the ASL. Strictly speaking, access to the ASL is only via the feeder lane. Now, it's generally easy enough for cycles to get down there but motorcycles would then end up in cycle lanes on occasions and potentially block access again for cyclists. And, from experience, there's little less pleasant than ending up with a motorcycle in front of you, pumping out exhaust fumes (which have those nasty smaller particles that embed in the lungs) directly into your face thanks to the angle of the pipe.

[PeckhamRose]

In the London Borough of Newham, Motorcyclists are allowed in the box at the lights.

So, why can't we be allowed in every other borough and TFL boxes. Clearly Newham think we are ok.

As for being 'terrifying' when we ride past you in a bus lane. Why is it terrifying? You should be alert and awake to the traffic and then nothing would be terrifying. Motorcyclists should know to always slow down when in a bus lane and approaching a left turn, in case a car from the main lane on our right turns left in to it without bothering to check for us.

Drive/ride safely, people.

[ironjawcannon]

the box is for cyclists as they are not able to start as quickly and accelerate off. i think at lights motorcycles should be like other "petrol" vehicles and line up, in the lane, like the cars etc. What is the problem with this? Motorcycles do not HAVE to overtake the other traffic all the time.

[lexathon]

I'm a cyclist and a motorcyclist, and I'm afraid I have to disagree with the OP. I see absolutely no reason to allow motorcyclists into cycle boxes on 'safety grounds'. Sure, if you want motorcyclists to have a nice spot at the front of a queue so they can get ahead of traffic, but it would be at the expense of cyclists' safety. I can happily ride my motorbike into work without using a cycle box and do not feel in danger doing so, and if I'm cycling, I feel more exposed if a motorbike pulls alongside me in the box.

[Zombiemonkey]

Hi Applespider, you just reminded of another (minor) argument in favour of motorcyclists legitimately using cycling boxes: being stuck behind cars is awful as you breathe all the exhaust fumes. At least when you are waiting in front of all the traffic, that doesn?t happen. Why should we be pushed back and forced to breathe that? It can't be good for you...

@ PeckhamRose: fair point about differences between boroughs. Same problem about the bus lanes, 10 years ago I could use all of them- that was safe. Then they changed it to none of them. I bet that caused a few accidents ?Now this: you have to find the road signs, and read them as you are riding, whilst avoiding cyclists, cars, cabs, buses, and pedestrians running across roads outside zebra crossings. It?s quite scary, especially in the winter when it?s dark. If I'm reading the article in the standard though, those new cycling box fines will be across London and they are going to use CCTV to enforce it. It's just a money making scam really. Police until now were too busy to worry about motorcyclists using cycling boxes, who are causing no trouble at all, but now, well.. it's all a big grey area. As always for us. About motorcyclist frightening cyclists in bus lanes: we make noise, that's the point of having an engine, they can hear us coming. I can't hear cyclists coming, and they ride fast sometimes, cutting me off, wobbling, changing lanes suddenly. And a lot of them are a real danger: cycling in full length skirts and platform shoes, listening to music and crossing at zebras without looking...they are a lot of cyclists out there with no training and no idea about what they are doing. They are the ones I have to look out for.

[Zombiemonkey]

@ ironjawcannon: when we get trained to ride a motorbike, we are taught about riding safely and we are taught to overtake traffic. That's the whole point, it keeps us safe. If you are in a queue with cars, you get pushed out of the way, guaranteed that happens to me every day. And we need to be in front of all the cars to speed out of the way at traffic lights, again, to keep ourselves safe. And what is the problem with that? Bikes have faster acceleration then cars, so we?re not causing any nuisance to car drivers. And we are alert, car drivers aren't. They tend to go on auto- pilot when stuck in traffic jams (well, I don't as I ride both bikes and bicycles, so used to look out for all road users).

[Zombiemonkey]

@ Lexathon:well, I'm curious, how doyou manage to avoid using the cycling boxes? Do you ride outside rush hours? I like your idea of having a spot for motorbikes in front of cars, but that would be impossible to put in place. So why not using the boxes already there and make them for all 2 wheels users? The ASLs are already used by cyclists and motorcyclists. We seem to have a mutual understanding, cyclists pile on the left, motorbikes and scooters on the right, we drive off out of everyone?s way and we keep ourselves safe. This works perfectly well. Well, I do come across ?militant cyclists? moaning at me ?but these occurrences are very rare. Cyclists usually don?t mind me being in front of 3 tons cars side by side with them as a general rule.

[nunhead_man]

Zombiemonkey Wrote:

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> snip ............ We seem to have a mutual

> understanding, cyclists pile on the left,

> motorbikes and scooters on the right, we drive off

> out of everyone?s way and we keep ourselves safe.

Cyclists pile on the left, motorbikes and scooters on the right and then tye latter pull over to the left knocking off cyelists.

[Applespider]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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As for being 'terrifying' when we ride past you in

> a bus lane. Why is it terrifying? You should be

> alert and awake to the traffic and then nothing

> would be terrifying. Motorcyclists should know to

> always slow down when in a bus lane

For the most part, it's when they don't slow down and come screaming past you well above the speed limit for that stretch of road. I can glance around before signalling to overtake/avoid a manhole cover - and if someone is going at 50mph, they can come up very fast. To be fair, it's usually scooter drivers with Ls rather than motorcyclists who seem to cut it finer. They are also the ones who seem to have little understanding of hand signals or the fact that cyclists are allowed to overtake slower cyclists - if that means that I'm towards the right of the bus lane, that doesn't give them the right to sit on my wheel and rev until I move back in.

zombiemonkey - I understand you might not want to breathe fumes either. But most car exhausts aren't set at a level that blasts into your face. I'd also assumed that motorcycle helmets had filters in them but that could be my error.

[lexathon]

Zombiemonkey Wrote:

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> @ Lexathon:well, I'm curious, how doyou manage to

> avoid using the cycling boxes? Do you ride outside

> rush hours?

I usually position myself alongside cars behind the box. If there's no room I slot in behind the first car at the lights - maybe it adds 15 seconds to my commute.

Zombiemonkey Wrote:

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> We seem to have a mutual

> understanding, cyclists pile on the left,

> motorbikes and scooters on the right, we drive off

> out of everyone?s way and we keep ourselves safe.

Works great until a cyclist wants to turn right.

I think we could all do to be a little more patient and give each other a little more room.

[malumbu]

No no no. Keep them out. And out of bus lanes. Bally daft.

From a cyclist and motorcyclist of 30 years plus.

I have as much hassle from motorbikes as from white vans, taxis, young drivers and buses. Not a lot but I do moan about it when it happens.

Motorcyclists = proper motorbikes who are generally OK

Those who want to become taxi drivers doing the knowledge who can be a pain

And annoying people on scooters, due to their manoeuvrability but their lack of awareness of road position.

[polla2256]

Can everyone not see - Buses are the problem not cars, cycles or motorbikes.

Bar buses to only use bus lanes.

[LadyDeliah]

Buses decrease congenstion by carrying loads of people who would cause gridlock if they all drove a car.

[Burbage]

Zombiemonkey Wrote:

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> users? The ASLs are already used by cyclists and

> motorcyclists. We seem to have a mutual

> understanding, cyclists pile on the left,

> motorbikes and scooters on the right, we drive off

> out of everyone?s way and we keep ourselves safe.

It's not mutual. It's in fact the same lazy and stupid assumption that gets cyclists killed at junctions. It also relies on cyclists never needing to turn right.

Cyclists, wherever they're going, should never overtake on the left. To get to an ASL, they should take the relevant lane, and then, if it's safe to move ahead to the ASL, indicate, pull out to the right and overtake the static traffic. That is the only safe way to proceed. The reason ASL 'feeder lanes' are on the left is not because it's a good idea but because there needs to be a dashed line at the foot of an ASL that only cyclists can use. The DfT were in the awkward position of either having to think of a proper answer, change some rules and generally do what they're paid for, or impose an easily bureaucratic, if murderous, solution in the gutter. They naturally chose the latter. But if, as a cyclist, you plan to stay alive, you're best ignoring them.

For a motorcyclist, it's different. As there is nowhere 'at the front' that motorcyclists are legally allowed to occupy, there is no justification for them overtaking on the approach to a junction, as the Highway Code makes amply clear. So, as things stand, there should be no conflict at all. However, many motorcyclists ignore this, and, whether using ASLs or just ignoring stop lines, are already bringing themselves into conflict with cyclists who are proceeding in the only safe and legal way open to them. To officially permit this thoughtless and irresponsible behaviour seems hardly in the spirit of improving safety.

That's not just safety for cyclists, but for motorcyclists, too. Most of the accidents involving the latter happen because drivers don't register their approach, and pull out into their path. This is common to both cycles and motorbicycles and, contrary to popular opinion, is not obviously down to moody clothing and an equally dim view of speed limits. Apparently, motorists just don't see narrow things in the near distance, possibly because they have a lot of clutter in their way, possibly for psychological reasons. Wearing bright clothing and having headlights on does make some difference, but only sometimes.

So, if motorbicyclists were really concerned about self-preservation, they'd be not trying to get ahead of the traffic and annoying cyclists, but riding in the stream of traffic, safely in the lane. There is, of course, an oft-repeated argument that motorcyclists have special needs, their machines having an instability at low speeds which they are unable to control. But that's not an excuse. That's a reason to buy a tricycle.

[PeckhamRose]

"As there is nowhere 'at the front' that motorcyclists are legally allowed to occupy, there is no justification for them overtaking on the approach to a junction, as the Highway Code makes amply clear."

But, but but but. As previously mentioned by me, the London Borough of Newham absolutely definitely encourages and allows motorcycles to overtake the traffic and share the box at the front with the cycles. And nobody whinges about it. I have to ride around that borough quite regularly.

[Horsebox]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> But, but but but. As previously mentioned by me,

> the London Borough of Newham absolutely definitely

> encourages and allows motorcycles to overtake the

> traffic and share the box at the front with the

> cycles. And nobody whinges about it. I have to

> ride around that borough quite regularly.

I've never heard anyone whinge about it either, but equally I've never seen anyone but you mention how it's a good thing.

I imagine that most motorcyclists want access to the boxes not for reasons of safety or self preservation, but mostly so that they can tear off the line without being impeded by cars.

Please, lets keep them for cyclists. It's really not that difficult to avoid crossing the line.

[binary_star]

Hmm think the motorcycle lanes in Newham were a pilot from some time ago that never really took off weren't they? Certainly doesn't seem to have been adopted elsewhere so presumably they weren't much of a success. Also looks like Newham is getting completely segregated cycle lanes with the Boris bike extension: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/28035.aspx

Do motorbikes need to be at the front rather than in with the rest of the traffic?