The newly landscaped Dulwich Square

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 30/11/2024 at 14:09, Rockets said:

What a great idea that it is, very clever - a win/win!

I had wondered what they were when I saw them when they were first put in.

What’s the issue with SUDS now? You’d prefer that would rather there was less planting and less drainage?

19 hours ago, Kathleen Olander said:

There is no clear definition of the areas for bikes and pedestrians.  As a result some cyclists are cycling all over the pedestrian bits and pedestrians keep wandering into the cyclist bits.  It's all the same bland colour.  Motorcycles/mopeds etc still keep riding through as well!

How is there no clear definition? They’re at different levels with a kerb?

Edited December 5 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

It will be interesting long term to see how well the landscaping / planting is looked after. The beds at the Tessa Jowell Centre are a mess. Who pays for the upkeep?

The main issue though  is that cyclists are not adhering to the bits meant to be cycled on but using the pedestrian areas too. That should be the focus here.

Yesterday, walking out of the park onto the pedestrian only footpath, I was nearly taken out by a male on a Lime bike, who had decided to mount the pavement. He swore at me for being in his way!

Edited December 5 by first mate

[Sue]

55 minutes ago, first mate said:

It will be interesting long term to see how well the landscaping / planting is looked after. The beds at the Tessa Jowell Centre are a mess. Who pays for the upkeep?

When the old Dulwich Hospital was there, there was a community herb garden at the front which was built, planted and maintained by local businesses and residents.

If memory serves, they were told that this - or some form of it - would be kept when the new buildings were built.

It's a real shame that (to the best of my knowledge) this hasn't happened.

We (The Goose Is Out!) ran a gig at DHFC to raise money for it, and all the musicians (including Wizz Jones) gave their time for free.

A local business (I can't remember which, sorry) built all the raised beds for free, and Monica from  Health Matters in Lordship Lane played a major part in getting the garden off the ground (no pun intended). 

Edited December 5 by Sue

[Kathleen Olander]

3 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

What’s the issue with SUDS now? You’d prefer that would rather there was less planting and less drainage?

How is there no clear definition? They’re at different levels with a kerb?

The cycle track runs all through the junction, it does not have any kerb of any significance in most places.

[Earl Aelfheah]

4 hours ago, first mate said:

It will be interesting long term to see how well the landscaping / planting is looked after. The beds at the Tessa Jowell Centre are a mess. Who pays for the upkeep?

The main issue though  is that cyclists are not adhering to the bits meant to be cycled on but using the pedestrian areas too. That should be the focus here.

Yesterday, walking out of the park onto the pedestrian only footpath, I was nearly taken out by a male on a Lime bike, who had decided to mount the pavement. He swore at me for being in his way!

Wow, this does happen to you a lot! It's like you're constantly dodging rogue cyclists / being sworn at. How has this never happened to me once? Weird

1 hour ago, Kathleen Olander said:

The cycle track runs all through the junction, it does not have any kerb of any significance in most places.

How can you tell it runs through the junction if there is no separation? Pretty sure it's on a different level, stepped down from the pedestrian area no?

Edited December 5 by Earl Aelfheah

[Earl Aelfheah]

Nice before and after shots courtesy of ‘clean air Dulwich’.  

[Rockets]

7 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

What’s the issue with SUDS now? You’d prefer that would rather there was less planting and less drainage?

I didn't say there was any issue - I was actually commenting on what a god idea they are. You seem to have had a bit of a knee-jerk aggressive Pavlovian reaction and seem to think anything I post is having a go at things. Calm down...I was agreeing that they were a good idea......

[Earl Aelfheah]

Fair enough @Rockets, my bad. I read it as sarcasm. I can't imagine why I'd assume anything you post in relation to the square is having a go. 😉 

Edited December 5 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

🙃

[Rockets]

Earl - you didn't jump to a conclusion did you.....where have we seen that before, seems to be a lot of folks partial to bit of knee-jerking ;-)

 

[first mate]

12 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Earl - you didn't jump to a conclusion did you.....where have we seen that before, seems to be a lot of folks partial to bit of knee-jerking ;-)

 

Not Earl's only bad, he has now insinuated that my recent experiences with cyclists on footpaths are not true. I actually find that really offensive. I can assure Earl that every case is completely true. It seems Earl can only accept something if it is his own experience and anything that contradicts that must be a falsehood. Isn't he the one that has banged on and on about cognitive biases?

[Kathleen Olander]

7 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Wow, this does happen to you a lot! It's like you're constantly dodging rogue cyclists / being sworn at. How has this never happened to me once? Weird

How can you tell it runs through the junction if there is no separation? Pretty sure it's on a different level, stepped down from the pedestrian area no?

This is painful, don't take my word for it, go and take a look.  It's dangerous, it's all one colour, a child would not know what is for pedestrians and what part is for cycles, it all merges into one.  I only know because I live in the area and saw the plans, visitors don't have that luxury.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I walk and run regularly. I cover. A lot of miles on foot each week. Not once have I had a cyclist nearly hit me on the pavement or swear at me. Yet some people claim it’s an almost daily occurrence. It somewhat stretches the boundaries of probability tbh.

Edited December 7 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Yep, if it is not Earl's daily experience then it is not true. Earl the man who preaches about cognitive biases.

[Kathleen Olander]

14 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I walk and run regularly. I cover. A lot of miles on foot each week. Not once have I had a cyclist nearly hit me on the pavement or swear at me. Yet some people claim it’s an almost daily occurrence. It somewhat stretches the boundaries of probability tbh.

If you fancy testing this, go and stand in middle of DV Junction and I can guarantee it!

[sandyman]

wrong post

Edited December 9 by sandyman
wrong post

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 07/12/2024 at 21:07, first mate said:

Yep, if it is not Earl's daily experience then it is not true. Earl the man who preaches about cognitive biases.

That is not what a cognitive bias is. 

I'm not saying that people have never experienced a near miss in their life. But individuals suggesting that they regularly experiencing such events, stretches the bounds of probability.

It seems far more likely that their antipathy to 'cyclists' leads them to actively seeking out examples of people on bicycles breaking the rules and then to exaggerate those experiences, claiming constant 'near' misses are occurring. This actually is a classic example of confirmation bias. 

Despite the threads claiming that 'cyclists are taking over the paths', or that individuals are being mown down by people on push bikes all over Dulwich, there is no evidence of this being true. And I don't actually believe anyone genuinely thinks it's any more than hyperbole from the usual suspects, with an axe to grind.

Edited December 10 by Earl Aelfheah

[Kathleen Olander]

Cyclists continually cycle across the pedestrian area of the junction.  The reason for this is that the cycle hangers nearest the shops are outside Harold George and they can't be bothered to get off their bikes and walk.

[first mate]

I know Earl would love to detour into a heated debate on what cognitive biases are, but I won't bite, thanks (most of us do know, but nice try). Your MO is quite familiar now, get into some hair splitting and deflect.

I have recently been on the receiving end of a spate of careless cyclists and a couple of near misses where, yes, I have been sworn at. You are seriously stretching the bounds of probability in suggesting that I and others go looking for it?! That is such a poor and ridiculous response not worthy even of you.

The facts are more people are using bikes to get around. They may be people who have not done much cylcing before. They have had no training on what is appropriate. I would guess many are not aware running red light is illegal and cycling on non shared pavements is not allowed either. Stop burying your head in the sand, wake up and admit there is work to be done on the agenda to transition to 'active travel'.

[Earl Aelfheah]

4 hours ago, Kathleen Olander said:

Cyclists continually cycle across the pedestrian area of the junction.  The reason for this is that the cycle hangers nearest the shops are outside Harold George and they can't be bothered to get off their bikes and walk.

This is probably true. 

4 hours ago, first mate said:

I know Earl would love to detour into a heated debate on what cognitive biases are, but I won't bite, thanks (most of us do know, but nice try). Your MO is quite familiar now, get into some hair splitting and deflect.

I have recently been on the receiving end of a spate of careless cyclists and a couple of near misses where, yes, I have been sworn at. You are seriously stretching the bounds of probability in suggesting that I and others go looking for it?! That is such a poor and ridiculous response not worthy even of you.

The facts are more people are using bikes to get around. They may be people who have not done much cylcing before. They have had no training on what is appropriate. I would guess many are not aware running red light is illegal and cycling on non shared pavements is not allowed either. Stop burying your head in the sand, wake up and admit there is work to be done on the agenda to transition to 'active travel'.

I didn't bring up cognitive bias - you did. You do this all the time. Ask a question and then object that the answer is taking things off track. If you don't want to discuss cognitive bias', perhaps don't bring them up? Just a thought.

How many near misses have you experienced and what constitutes a 'near miss' exactly? 

If this is a daily, or even weekly occurrence then you must be unbelievably unlucky (emphasis on 'unbelievable').

[first mate]

 

At no point in my last few posts have I asked you a question (other than rhetorical)? Show me where I have?

Honestly Earl, this is what you do, consistently accuse others of cognitive biases in a feeble attempt to back up your own perspective as the only one that is valid. Then you claim things have been said when they haven't. 

Read again my earlier posts as I have been pretty clear about my experiences with cyclists recently. 

But what is truly laughable is the kernel of your whole take on the subject is as quoted from you, below:

Earl said:  "Not once have I had a cyclist nearly hit me on the pavement or swear at me."

So because it has not happened to you... then for others who report it, it is "unbelievable".

Then you accuse others of hyperbole but simultaneously claim posters, including me, are:

"actively seeking out examples of people on bicycles breaking the rules and then to exaggerate those experiences, claiming constant 'near' misses are occurring".

"individuals are being mown down by people on push bikes all over Dulwich"

It is hard to take you seriously, Earl. Get those blinkers off and stop misrepresenting and exaggerating for effect.

Edited December 10 by first mate

[ab29]

Walking from Guy's Cancer Centre to Waterlo via Newcomen Rd - crossing Borough High St then Union Street and The Cut - is a great route to experience daily near misses, especially if the weather is nice

[Rockets]

I would challenge anyone who spends any amount of time walking around the Dulwich area - especially Dulwich Square - not to have had incidents with cyclists. If they haven't then they clearly aren't spending much time in the area at all or they are choosing not to see things.

 

To be fair there is probably cognitive bias on both sides - some of us see it more frequently because it grabs out attention and confirms our position whilst others will choose not to see it because by doing so it confirms their position that it is not happening. 

It is happening and by pretending it isn't some are making a rod for their own back.

[Earl Aelfheah]

15 hours ago, Rockets said:

I would challenge anyone who spends any amount of time walking around the Dulwich area - especially Dulwich Square - not to have had incidents with cyclists. If they haven't then they clearly aren't spending much time in the area at all or they are choosing not to see things.

 

To be fair there is probably cognitive bias on both sides - some of us see it more frequently because it grabs out attention and confirms our position whilst others will choose not to see it because by doing so it confirms their position that it is not happening. 

It is happening and by pretending it isn't some are making a rod for their own back.

It depends what you mean by 'incidents with cyclists'. As I have said above, I have no doubt that some people wheel across the square on their bikes, when they should fully dismount. 

Those who argue issues of transport and safety largely through the prism of ‘car versus bike’, might suggest that people on ‘the other side’ as they see it (myself perhaps) are just as likely to be looking out for and placing more weight upon the bad behaviour of by those travelling by motor vehicle. But you’ll notice that I don’t relay endless anecdotes about things I've seen drivers doing. I don't assume my personal observations mean very much.

We will all of seen people being inconsiderate, putting themselves or others at a degree of risk on our streets, whether travelling in a car, on a bicycle or by foot. But only one of those is likely to lead to very serious consequences for others. Neither the actions of people travelling by push bike, or foot lead to tens of thousands of deaths and serious injuries every year, or millions of pounds of property damage. This is a primarily a matter of verifiable fact and of physics. 

So the point I make is one of perspective, proportion and reality. I didn't bring up bias, that was firstmate. But I will answer his quip. Whilst I have no doubt that you have noticed people cycling across the square, it stretches the bounds of probability that you have come close to being hit on multiple occasions. I suggest that your antipathy to 'cyclists' and the creation of the square may be leading you to be hyper vigilant when it comes to misdemeanours involving bicycles and prone to over interpreting inconsiderate behaviour, as regular, and dangerous 'near misses'. 
 

 

 

Edited December 11 by Earl Aelfheah

[malumbu]

My only collision between a bike and a pedestrian is when I ran out into the road in Westminster without looking.  The bike caught my hand, I apologised and the rider said no worries.  Very different if it had been the other way round where I may have used choice language.

On the opposite I have had numerous times when pedestrians have walked out on me without looking, I'm now far more aware of pedestrians on their phones etc, but the first times were before mobiles let alone smart phones when I worked off Fleet Street, or I'd cycle down Oxford Street.

I sense that some of you want conflict to happen so you can then post about it to support your anti-cyclist views.  Me?  Pavement cycling when pedestrians are on it is a nuisance.  If someone wants to scoot through a red light it doesn't bother me, if they cycle when I am crossing the road on my green light then that is out of order.  But I wouldn't feel angry enough it to go on a mission.

I'm far more angry about those speeding on Perry Vale, particularly when the school kids were leaving, and those parking outside the schools on double yellows.  Hats off to Southwark, that unlike Lewisham, have a much better policy including school wardens.  And Lambeth, is even better.  Bromley have a compulsory 40mph outside schools for their residents. 

Edited December 11 by malumbu