The newly landscaped Dulwich Square

[Rockets]

6 hours ago, tiddles said:

I had no idea about the sourcing of the paving stones - where is the info on this? The extension of the paved area seems completely unjustified- plus, there is a cycle lane right thru the middle so there are bound to be some near misses with pedestrians. 

https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/dulwich/ltn-hailed-as-eco-friendly-using-indian-stones-quarried-5000-miles-away/

[Glemham]

Didn’t take me very long to find this article in the Guardian from March of this year:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2024/mar/28/how-child-labour-in-india-makes-the-paving-stones-beneath-our-feet?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Did Southwark Council and/or its contractors do their research before choosing Indian sandstone? If you’ve ever visited India you will know that labouring work is more often done by women and children whilst the men ‘supervise’.

[malumbu]

Why is this on the transport part of the forum?   If it goes wider than East Dulwich then surely the Lounge.  It is about a nice public location.  The impact on transport is covered over numerous other threads.

As for sourcing of stone I expect virtually all of us are guilty of purchasing stuff that we maybe shouldn't.  Single use plastic, fruit and veg from half way round the world and products containing palm oil being some obvious ones.  And Deliveroo, Uber Eats and Just Eat if you want to talk about poor treatment of workers.

[Rockets]

2 minutes ago, malumbu said:

As for sourcing of stone I expect virtually all of us are guilty of purchasing stuff that we maybe shouldn't. 

The council apologist in chief strikes again....

Malumbu, I know you would love this to be in the lounge so there isn't any attention on the council's failure but it is a transport hub.

If it is true that these slabs are from India then Cllr McAsh has some very serious questions to answer as this has happened on his watch and you cannot take a position of closing a road on the basis of helping the environment and then go and cover it in environmentally damaging materials sourced from half way around the world and transported on a cargo ship.

These are elected officials entrusted by us to do the right thing - they have not done that here and it makes a mockery of their environmental stance and is beyond embarrassing - you have to ask just how much oversight and governance the likes of Cllr McAsh are providing. They have also embarrassed those supporters who have blindly stood by them with their support for the changes in DV.

Their "consultation" part of the website (which has been stripped of all the detail on the consultation plans interestingly enough and is now a much more abbreviated version of the previous site) https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking-streets-and-transport/improving-streets-and-spaces/streets-people states:

How we're making streets healthier and greener in Dulwich

...which is laughable in light of their choice of materials...

[ab29]

On 12/11/2024 at 15:01, Earl Aelfheah said:

The works to re-landscape the square in Dulwich Village are set to complete this weekend I believe. Despite all the 'controversy', over its creation and legitimate questions over cost, it is in my opinion, looking great (and a huge improvement on the queue of idling cars that were constantly sat at that junction 4 years ago. A great new public space for people to sit, relax and congregate.  

But of course. The £1.5 million Dulwich Village junction re-design, despite the complete lack of community support justifies "the new great public space".

Being five minutes away from Dulwich Park.

Edited November 13 by ab29

[first mate]

Rockets said: "These are elected officials entrusted by us to do the right thing - they have not done that here and it makes a mockery of their environmental stance and is beyond embarrassing - you have to ask just how much oversight and governance the likes of Cllr McAsh are providing. They have also embarrassed those supporters who have blindly stood by them with their support for the changes in DV."
 

Greening the environment, one of the justifications posited for the extraordinarily expensive and multiple reconfigurations of Dulwich junction, has really been undermined by this latest revelation. Has the Council or McAsh made any kind of statement about this?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I would absolutely support using UK sourced stone, but suspect that this didn't happen because of budget. The council can't really win on this, especially with those who will oppose anything they do with the square. Had the paving stones been sourced in the UK, they would have been considerably more expensive and that would have also attracted criticism from the usual posters.

What I will say though is that (money and stone sourcing aside) it is a massive improvement on what was there before, will no doubt survive the test of time. It is already proving a very popular new public space, especially at school closing time.

...also note that many criticising the carbon footprint and expense (whilst not unreasonable objections to raise) would happily have it all ripped out again massively increasing both. 

Edited November 14 by Earl Aelfheah

[Metallic]

I am thinking this is just a desert of whiteness - until you get to the very out of place Scots pines.  Who on earth thought they would look nice?  Someone yesterday said it was a nod to climate change, but if it is, surely we should have had palms planted there?  

In my view this space will be used by waiting parents for the schools to come out, and by the look of it at other times in the day, it is deserted.

There is no hope for the shops.

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

I would absolutely support using UK sourced stone, but suspect that this didn't happen because of budget.

Budget has seen to be no object on the square given the millions wasted on it - so are you saying that if the price isn't right then it's ok to do harm to the environment...that's a very slippery slope if you are allowing the council that escape lane....?

2 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

What I will say though is that (money and stone sourcing aside) it is a massive improvement on what was there before, will no doubt survive the test of time. It is already proving a very popular new public space, especially at school closing time.

I don't think it is £1.5m better than what was there before they started these works - a lot of my neighbours say they preferred what was there a few months ago - that it now feels like a spaceship landing pad. I just think about the improvements to other parts of Dulwich/Southwark that could have been made with that £1.5m budget that has been wasted (and done unknown harm to the environment in the process).

[march46]

Some people will never be happy. 
 

end of thread

[snowy]

Or will find any point to latch on to.
 

A quick back of a fag packet calculation is that 1 family car in a year has the same emissions as 18 square metres of that Indian sandstone.

 

[Penguin68]

18 minutes ago, snowy said:

A quick back of a fag packet calculation is that 1 family car in a year has the same emissions as 18 square metres of that Indian sandstone.

What sort of car and what sort of mileage are you assuming? A hybrid which is parked up most of the time has a very different footprint than a frequently used diesel, for instance. I'm assuming you are considering on costs and not additionally construction costs of carbon. 

[malumbu]

4 hours ago, march46 said:

Some people will never be happy. 
 

end of thread

I'm happy.  The shops are happy too irrespective of views above.  Being in the area in Tuesday there were many other happy people.

Edited to add: The Captain and his dolly mixtures are also happy

Edited November 14 by malumbu

[march46]

You’re right, I see happy people there all the time. Last week I saw a young boy cycling through with his Dad, he excitedly shouted “it’s so much better!” when his Dad pointed out that the cycle lane was completed. 
 

Replacing the echelon parking with normal bays is immeasurably safer also. Improvements everywhere around, not just in the square. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCWOWo9odM6/?igsh=MTMycmpvaXY1a3Axdw==

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, malumbu said:

The shops are happy too irrespective of views above. 

Which shops - what are you basing this on?

Only today Clean Air for All Dulwich reckons only two support the measures (I think we can guess which ones) and another one is about to close...

https://x.com/DulwichCleanAir/status/1856971581471560101?s=19

 

The overly glowing reaction to this from the usual suspects is so predictable...talk to most folks who live in the area about the money wasted, the challenges the emergency services have had with the council and the India stone debacle and the reaction is very, very different.

But, to be fair, is it any wonder the council acts the way they do when some are happy to back them even when they get things very, very wrong? In some people's eyes they seem to be able to do no wrong.

I suspect Dulwich Square will haunt the council and councillors for a very long time - this will be their legacy - wasting tax-payers money on a vanity project that created a bigger environmental footprint than was necessary delivered zero tangible difference to what was there 6 months ago and took desperately needed money away from more pressing needs. If their only KPI was to make some active travel lobbyists happy then congrats to them! Perhaps the government's new Covid Corruption tsar could take a look to work out what has been going on here....;-)

 

Edited November 14 by Rockets

[Dulwichway]

Phone snatch predator heaven😆

[first mate]

Oh yes, and just wait until the Lime bikes start to be 'stored' (dumped) there.

[malumbu]

5 hours ago, Rockets said:

Which shops - what are you basing this on?

Only today Clean Air for All Dulwich reckons only two support the measures (I think we can guess which ones) and another one is about to close.

 

Which shops are closing, which businesses don't support the changes?  Four years since Covid and the Village seems to be doing alright. That is what I see with my own eyes. 

[first mate]

Seems other people also have eyes and are seeing things differently.

I am waiting for the Lime bikes to arrive, which they will. Most likely spring/summer.

Cyclists still careering onto the pedestrians areas. Yesterday a young male cycling on pavement in the Village made me step aside for him.

[Rockets]

21 hours ago, malumbu said:

The shops are happy too irrespective of views above. 

Mal, I was just challenging you on what you were basing this on? Just wondering if you had anything to back this statement up with. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

23 hours ago, Rockets said:

so are you saying that if the price isn't right then it's ok to do harm to the environment...that's a very slippery slope if you are allowing the council that escape lane....?

Nope. I've said the exact opposite, as you can read above. I would prefer them to use more expensive UK sourced stones.

Had they done that however, you'd have criticised them for how expensive the materials were. The point is that if you are obsessively against creating a new public space in the first place, then there is really nothing they could do with it that you would approve of. 

Edited November 15 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

10 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Had they done that however, you'd have criticised them for how expensive the materials were.

We will never know will we because the council, in their quest to waste £1.5m to make changes to the junction that do and add nothing more than the previous version, decided to source paving slabs from halfway around the world and having them shipped to Dulwich.

10 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

The point is that if you are obsessively against creating a new public space in the first place, then there is really nothing they could do with it that you would approve of. 

It was already a public space before this latest round of pointless  works was it not?

[Spartacus]

On 14/11/2024 at 12:21, malumbu said:

I'm happy.  The shops are happy too irrespective of views above.  Being in the area in Tuesday there were many other happy people.

Edited to add: The Captain and his dolly mixtures are also happy

You sound like the person in the radio advert for Octopus energy.

You're been brilliant you've all been brilliant 

 

[Kathleen Olander]

On 14/11/2024 at 21:54, malumbu said:

Which shops are closing, which businesses don't support the changes?  Four years since Covid and the Village seems to be doing alright. That is what I see with my own eyes. 

Which shops DO support the changes, have you actually spoken to any?  

[ab29]

3 hours ago, Kathleen Olander said:

Which shops DO support the changes, have you actually spoken to any?  

On 12/11/2024 at 15:01, Earl Aelfheah said:

The works to re-landscape the square in Dulwich Village are set to complete this weekend I believe. Despite all the 'controversy', over its creation and legitimate questions over cost, it is in my opinion, looking great (and a huge improvement on the queue of idling cars that were constantly sat at that junction 4 years ago. A great new public space for people to sit, relax and congregate.  

Several shops had to move or close from what I remember. And I stopped going there altogether - used to visit the bookshop, stopped for coffee and would take all friends and family to see the area.

No more which is my personal protest.

The closure of Dulwich Village junction means the roads which would take some of the Lordship Lane traffic are no longer accessible to cars.

All the traffic is now pushed to LL, creating even more air and noise pollution for residents living on LL and other boundary roads - as if it wasn't bad enough already.

Dulwich Park is 5 min away from Dulwich Village junction - on foot. Lots of space (and the coffee shop) to hang around.

3 minutes walk to Gail's, Crown&Greyhound pub, Pizza Express etc. - but this simply is not enough for DV residents and its removed from reality Southwark Labour councillors and supporters.

Edited November 16 by ab29