why tesco Wipe out the small shops and any other in the area?.

[edhistory]

> Sainsburys didn't damage the local shops here, the area was in transition demographically at the time and certain shops would inevitably close at some point, and they did.

Interesting.

John K

[Lynne]

So it was entirely co-incidental that nearly all the food shops closed after Sainsburys opened? I think not

Lynne

[BrandNewGuy]

No, but as Jeremy said, if they weren't offering anything significantly different from Sainsbury's - and often at a higher price - then they were unlikely to survive. Those shops that closed didn't adapt enough or offer anything much different, unlike food shops such as SMBS and the Cheese Block which survived and thrived.

[Louisa]

Yes Lynne of course it was. The area was changing, most of the people in ED back in those days went to Peckam Sainsbury's or Safeway anyway. The move to DKH made little or no difference.

Louisa.

[edhistory]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> most of the people in ED back in those days went

> to Peckam Sainsbury's or Safeway anyway.

Really?

John K

[Louisa]

Yes they did, the lots of people would agree. All this myth that everyone happily shopped in the small independents back then is a load of tripe. ED was crying out for something other than Gateway as it was then.

Louisa.

[edhistory]

Really?

John K

[Louisa]

Tell me this, when Sainsbury's left Peckham to move to the DKH site, how much footfall do you think Rye Lane lost from the surrounding areas? I would hazard a guess at a lot. And equally! its move to here would have increased footfall for LL and ED in general.

Louisa.

[edhistory]

You're guessing, again.

John K

[Louisa]

Maybe I am, and so is everyone else on here - including those who are blaming Sainsbury's exclusively for the closure of local businesses following the store opening. I have talked many times of my disapproval of certain things about this store, and I'm far from a cheerleader for them, but I don't play the 'lets take a shot at a big high street retailer just for the sake of it' it game either. We are all guessing. But those are my opinions, and I refuse to believe they contributed to any demise in local business which wouldn't have happened anyway.

Louisa

[LondonMix]

One thing you don't have to guess at is that many people prefer supermarkets for very obvious reasons. They are cheaper and more convenient. The supermarkets offer something that many people not just want but need. Small niche retailers have to offer something better to compete and those who do have survived. Buying your shopping isn't an act of charity. We are talking about businesses.

[Lynne]

I was living through it, and heard what the shopkeepers said. It's not fair to blame the closures on,in effect,old fashioned attitiudes/marketing. Small shopkeepers can't compete with the big boys relationship with the wholesalers/manufacturers if they're trying to sell the same type of goods.

Yes, if you see a niche, give your shop a silly name and charge twice as much, and hope for the best. Excellent retail strategy

Lynne

[BrandNewGuy]

No, niche doesn't have to mean poncey and chi-chi. As I mentioned, both SMBS and the Cheese Block are niche - some things in them are pricey, but then that's also the case with Sainsburys and - especially - the Co-op.

[Jeremy]

Lynne - in reality I'm sure the arrival of Sainsburys did damage local businesses at the time. But I don't really see what your point is... big supermarkets are everywhere now, and they're essential for a lot of people's lifestyles. We can't return to the past. If it wasn't here, lots of us would be driving over to Old Kent Rd every week to stock up.

[Penguin68]

Small shops (should) offer value for money through other things than price - i.e. range (Cheeseblock offers a far wider range of cheeses than any supermarket), quality - well sourced and made products - and service (knowing customers and their needs, providing a good atmosphere within the shop etc. etc.). All of these can be grouped together as 'quality of service' and research shows that you can charge a price premium of up to 20% when customers perceive they are getting excellent service quality.

There is no reason why small shops that focus on service quality (and this doesn't mean stocking high price 'snob' products) shouldn't do well against supermarket competition, which tends to focus on the 'ease of use, price' end of supplier differentiation.

A number of shops in LL pre the Dog Kennel Hill Sainsburies offered a poor range and quality of goods (old, small range and expensive) combined with a 'take it or leave it' service attitude - and suffered the consequences. The shops that now survive tend to look for the sorts of differentiation I have outlined, and do it well.

[Louisa]

Penguin I agree with your point about shops post Sainsbury's opening being more attentive and offering a better service. But going back to my previous point, there is a reason for this. The demographic changes on the area have meant that the population locally has more disposable income and wants to shop at a high end indy offering good service, ie cost is less of an issue.

Louisa.

[Penguin68]

A number of the shops that have 'survived' Sainsburies (though I grant you fewer of those post Sainsburies) are not 'high end' - but they do offer a good level of service (for instance being prepared to order stuff out-of-stock) - that includes a number of grocers. People will use retail outlets, even where the prices are slightly higher, where they are known and welcomed and treated well.

It is true that the demographic has been changing - and that shops have understood changing customer needs and responded to them. This is not, actually, a bad thing.

You do need to understand the difference between price (cost to the customer) and value - a shop which offers customers a seat whilst waiting (like Libretto's) offers a service which is valued - the headline price of meat pound for pound is subsumed within that value equation.

Sainburies drove out low value retailers (good) - and the changing demographics encouraged a different type of retailer to enter (also good, if they were meeting changing customer needs) - these two events may have been linked in time, but were not wholly causative (the changing demographic, which Sainsburies probably saw happening) was a more a function of people being priced out of the housing market elsewhere).

[BrandNewGuy]

And another niche is late/early opening and convenience. 7-11, Costcutter etc seem to have done OK over the years. Cost is less of an issue with them, too, though I don't think that's got much to do with demographic changes - everyone uses them.

[Bic Basher]

7-11 has changed hands twice since Sainsburys opened, as Budgens Express and now Londis, yet still offers the same niche of 24/7 opening.

Sainsburys also tried 24 hour opening on Mondays to Saturdays, however they now close at midnight, so they don't get it their own way as the footfall is on LL and not at DKH at that time of night.

[Jeremy]

7-11/Costcutter survive purely because they are local... you need milk/cereal/bread for the morning. You're on your way home and you fancy a bottle of wine or a couple of beers. You've ran out of washing up liquid/bog roll/etc and need emergency supplies. And they're just there at the end of the road.

[Bic Basher]

Lets take the shops along Dulwich Plough where Sainsbury's Local is. They include the Post Office/Convenience Store, Off Licence, the cafe which used to be Segars, Red Apple Newsagents, Vals Grocery, Chemist, Costcutter and Badger Bakery.

While initially, takings are down, not one of those shops along that section of LL have closed and in any case, I prefer the service I get from Red Apple than Sainsburys.

[Cassius]

When I first moved to ED I used Gateway as I didn't have either much spare money or a car. Later I used Sainsburys as I increased my income and gained a car. Later still I used local shops as much as possible as I maintained income but also started to appreciate the extra range and client service that the local shops provided. Sometimes individuals change as much as demographics.