Loft conversion in flat (shared freehold)

[rapunzel]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of loft conversions in an upstairs flat within a Victorian conversion.

I am currently purchasing the freehold of the building (I own the ground floor flat) jointly with the leaseholder of the upper floor.

The loft space is owned/covered under the upstairs lease (and cellar within mine).

The upstairs flat will be listed for sale as soon as the freehold purchase is completed.

For various reasons I am concerned that the flat will be listed with the potential to extend into the roof space, encouraging any future owner to do so.

I just want to find out as much information as I can to see if there are any changes that can be made to the leases (they will be extended as soon as we own the freehold) that might protect from or make any terms of extending/permissions etc clearer

In particular whether a dormer loft conversion would be possible, no mention of "air space" in the upstairs lease 

If anyone has knowledge of whether scaffolding/access for works using the garden (both front/back are within the ground floor lease) would have to be approved as part of any landlords consent

I am always concerned by the "such consent not to be unreasonably withheld" 

If the lease states that access has to be given for repairs and improvements could a flat conversion be seen as an improvement rather than the leaseholder wanting to expand to fit in another room/increase value

Would the fact any future repairs to a flat conversion result in access having to be granted via the ground floor flat/garden could this be used  as a reason for permission not to be granted

Similarly with this being a small Victorian terrace with shared communal hallway for access only, bin space within the front garden for 2 bins (so already short of space given the upstairs flat has 3 bedrooms) and a history of noise of coming/going/day to day living from upstairs could these assist with showing extending the upstairs would have a negative effect on the other flat and building

What, if any, impact would installing a flat conversion have on the fact repairs to the roof are currently split between both leaseholders 

Are there any terms that can be added to ensure that sub-division can't take place although I think that would be pretty given the current layout of the property

Neighbouring roads appear to have more loft extensions (within buildings already converted into flats) than ours so not sure if that would have any impact on planning/freeholders consent. There are a few developers cramming as many flats into the houses as possible so clearly quite keen to avoid this happening 

Sorry.. a lot of questions. I know most of the legal side of things on consent etc but obviously there are two sides here and with some of these points there are cases which have conflicting results so anything that can be put into our leases to make this clearer I feel would help and avoid any future problems and disagreements between the leaseholders before the upstairs flat is sold and our leases extended  

Any advice or experiences of this would be much appreciated, whether from ground floor or upper flat leaseholders that have gone through this.

Thank you

[alice]

In my experience loft space belongs to the freeholder of the property,  now as you would be having a shared freehold the loft space would not automatically belong to the upstairs flat although that sounds counterintuitive. 

[Jenijenjen]

"In my experience loft space belongs to the freeholder of the property,  now as you would be having a shared freehold the loft space would not automatically belong to the upstairs flat although that sounds counterintuitive." 

 

This is what I've always been led to believe and you, as part freeholder, would have to give your permission at the least or sell your share.  Also, I believe in the cases of roof extensions to flats, planning permission has to be obtained even if what is proposed is within permitted development.  Are you getting new leases drawn up with the purchase of the freehold or will the existing ones carry over? I think, for your peace of mind, you need to consult a solicitor.

Edited October 13 by Jenijenjen

[Azalea]

Can’t you consult a property savvy solicitor?

[rapunzel]

Thanks for the replies.

The lease clearly states that the loft space is part of the demise of the upstairs flat, hence all my questions. I appreciate that this is not the usual case. If it was owned by the freeholders the situation would be very different.

There will be slight amendments made to the current leases.

We are nearing completion of the freehold purchase so have been using a property savvy solicitor, this has been going on many years as we had an absent/uninterested landlord and with the past/current legal fees plus freehold cost I literally can't afford to pay for more legal advice!

Hence seeing if anyone on here had any relevant information. I think only someone who has been through a similar situation will be able to help sadly as it is very specific.

I am not interested in the planning permission which I understand.

More the landlords consent and if any lease amendments can make this clearer when it comes to extending within a flat, airspace/dormer windows, access using the garden for building/future repairs and any impact on future roof repairs/split of costs etc.

[tjbuilders]

If someone is going to pay the sort of money asked for an upstairs flat  in  East Dulwich area they would be well within their rights to stick a loft conversion on it. It would definitely be an “improvement” and the ground floor occupants could not block access for the works.

[Soylent Green]

I would have thought that if the two flats are sharing the freehold, you need to be on good terms with each other.  Looking at ways you could possibly prevet your neighbour from maximising his satisfaction with his home, is hardly conducive to this.  

[rapunzel]

Thanks Solyent Green, you have reminded me why it is not always a good idea to use the ED forum.

There are certain members who like to post just to give their personal opinion rather than useful advice, often to cause some kind of friction or argument, draw attention to themselves, who knows why, maybe just nothing better to do with their time.

I have spent the last 23 years dealing with problems with the other leaseholder, their tenants and the freeholder so at this stage I just want to ensure that no future leaseholder has to go through the same.  

[Jenijenjen]

Well said @Rapunzel Besides,  one freeholder subjecting their co freeholder to months of building work from which they will derive no benefit is hardly conducive to a good relationship. 

[KidKruger]

In this day and age anybody buying an upstairs flat is inevitably going to want to extend upwards if they can afford it, rather than have to go through the entire process again of buying a larger property as they step up “the ladder“ with the prohibitive costs involved. That would be reasonable behaviour on the part of an upstairs leaseholder. Anybody buying a property such as that, where other leaseholders in the property are intent on preventing such improvement to the property should in all fairness be advised in front that they will be opposed and if possible prevented from improving the property when they purchase it.

Solyent Green’s comment is more than reasonable (and an obvious consideration), he/she is not obliged to have a viewpoint exactly in line with the OP.

The advantage of this forum is exposure to viewpoints that are not exactly one’s own, no ?

I’d be interested in the reasons why somebody would be particularly intent on stopping somebody else improving their own property, especially when home improvements around East Dulwich are a common feature on every road the last three decades. ie. It is normal.

 

 

Edited October 14 by KidKruger

[Shaggy]

The proper answer, of course, is that you really do need to speak to a solicitor.

You will probably be told that if the loft space is theirs, they can do what they like with it. However you can't build a proper loft conversion without changing at least some of the roof. The roof, as an external part of the building, is usually shared and not demised. They will probably need to demise it if they want to convert. 

 

But it really does depend on the specific situation.