Southwark Dogs in Parks public consultation - deadline 16 Sept 2013

[DaveR]

"In my view, dogs have an important role in the daily lives of many and such a swingeing change to their lives is simply unjustifiable."

The most reliable looking stat I can find suggests that dog ownership in London runs at about 7% of households, signficantly lower than the UK average. I would guess, but it is only a guess, that the percentage for inner boroughs is lower than for outer boroughs, so for Southwark might be 5%? Whichever figure is right, it's clearly not sustainable for dog owners to insist on an absolute 'right to roam' if significant numbers of others want to be able to have some public spaces dog-free.

It's also not very persuasive just to argue that restrictions won't work because they won't be enforced or won't deter offenders. This argument can be raised about all sorts of relatively low level anti social behaviour but that is not a reason not to do anything. Compulsory microchipping is likely to make a difference.

[first mate]

DaveR,

I don't know the source of your stats,so cannot comment on those. If the overwhleming majority want dog-free parks I suppose it is curtains for the future of dogs as pets in the city. However, I see no evidence for this view, nor is it clear on what grounds Southwark are pursuing this. Those who frequent the park daily see no evidence of an increase in dog related issues- whatever that very open-ended statement means. I do suspect there is a minority that would like a no-dog city, but I very much doubt it's the majority.

On the subject of Dog Control Orders. I think the degree to which byelaws can be policed and enforced is wholly relevant to the debate. I think it is vital to know exactly what the aims of the legislation are and how achievable, otherwise it's a waste of time and money, surely?

[mako]

'Those who frequent the park daily see no evidence of an increase in dog related issues'

This is only your opinion. I frequent Dulwich park daily and do see an increase in dog related issues. What is an issue for some isnt for others so I think you can only speak for yourself rather than claim to be representative of 'daily park users'.

[DaveR]

Just to be clear - I am not advocating prohibition of dogs in parks, nor am I suggesting that the difficulties of enforcing restrictions on dogs are irrelevant. I am observing that dog owners (like any other group with a vested interest) will tend to make exaggerated claims in order to prevent debate on the issues, and that is exactly what is happening on this thread.

[first mate]

Mako,

Fair point- I meant those of us who frequent the park daily to walk our dogs, but I should have qualified that statement. By and large dog walkers (as in owners of)use the park all year round, even in cold, wet and windy weather. Overall, no I have not seen an increase in dog related issues, but I am only guessing what that term may mean.

You say that you have seen an increase- could you elaborate?

[first mate]

DaveR,

I protest. The debate is happening on this forum, not being suppressed. What claims have been exaggerated and by whom? My view is that the current "survey" on Southwark website is poorly designed and designed to give a misleading overview of attitudes to dogs in the parks. Why would they want to do this? As another poster has implied, the sense is that they have an objective, their minds are made up, and are now trying to get the ammunition with which to push it through. Open -ended propositions are one way to do that.

[scotch]

Elm grove...

Yes I certainly do say something if I see an owner not noticing (deliberately or not) their dog messing.

As for poo on wheels... I try my hardest to avoid it but I don't go to the park to keep my eyes to the ground!!! Yes, it is from wheeling over grass... Even in dog restricted areas!!

Like I said I am not a dog hater but hate the consequences of some if their actions around children and adults.

[first mate]

It's been said many time before, but none of us like dog poo, not even dog owners and the majority of dog owners do pick up. Aside from the quite understandable emotions that the subject triggers, what, on a practical level, would you like the average, repsonsible dog owner to do?

Like you, we have no control over the anti-social minority. If we really think that patrols and fineas are going to work then ok, but I, as you will have read , am not convinced there are the resources available to properly police and enforce dog fouling laws. To ban all dogs from all parks would be highly punitive and detrimental to the responsible dog owner. I also think that a city sterilised of dogs, an animal we have kept as a pet for thousands of years, would be a loss. But I would think that.

[indiepanda]

I'm not a dog owner, but I wouldn't like it if dogs were banned from the parks either. Vast majority of owners do the right thing and pick up after their dog, and whilst I am sure there is the odd badly behaved dog in the parks, most of them are lovely and seeing them cheers me up.

If we are going to start banning dogs, where is it going to end - banning humans because some of them are a menace too?

[chuff]

Surely unless you are a dog hater, you wouldn't fill in the survey asking that dogs be banned from the parks?

In my mind, once one sector of the community is banned, it opens it up for others to follow. Why ban the dogs and not cyclists/roller blades/picnics/ball games ect. The parks are a public space for us all to use (respectfully). It seems like a slippery slope to campaign to ban any of us.

I am a small dog owner that does keep my dog on a lead where instructed and picks up poo! I use Dulwich Park and rarely come across irresponsible owners, but know there are some out there. I generally have trouble with fast cycling while walking there but wouldn't dream of asking cyclists to be banned. Maybe to slow down when pedestrians are about but otherwise the park is there for all of us to enjoy and that's the way it should stay.

One bugbear is the litter, especially after a warm weekend. On a Monday morning the guys in the park have mountains of rubbish just dumped there. I'd prefer to petition about getting people to take their crap home to their own bins!

[mako]

Southwark havent suggested banning dogs as far as I can see. They are investigating some controls to deal with the anti social behaviour involving dogs. along with the 'havent seen an incident in 20 years' these are the exaggerations that daver was referring to earlier in the thread

[chuff]

They haven't suggested anything but it has been discussed on this thread and is the conclusion many of us are making. I completed the survey and felt uneasy, the questions were leading in my view. Maybe I'm just a suspicious old cow, who knows.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a dog attack, of course they happen but I've not seen it and I use the park twice a day, every day. I have also seen what LD described where people get abuse for having a dog off lead and in the off lead area. Maybe those areas need to be more clearly defined? One side of the park for dogs off lead and the other on?

Most of us that have dogs, want these issues remedied. The ones that don't and do as they please, will most likely continue to do so anyway, regardless of what the council decides.

[mako]

Southwark also arent suggesting that 'incidents' means dog attacks.

[first mate]

Mako,

I don't think Southwark's intentions are clear. Control orders might be a first step, but if those don't work, for the reasons given ie enforcement and resources...what next? It is not unknown for control orders to be used to ban all dogs, once in place, who decides? Something of the thinking of Southwark may be apparent in the exceedingly dodgy survey design- hardly even-handed.

As I have said, all of us dislike dog poo. It is not necessarily less offensive to me as a dog owner,than it is to you as a non-owner (that is an assumption and I am sure you'll correct me if I am wrong).

For the person who said they hadn't seen an incident in 20 years I would imagine they are not referring to fouling but something more extreme. In fairness, Southwark do not specify what is meant by dog-related issues. However, I would add that having lived in the borough and ED for over 20 years it is not my experience there has been a rise in fouling either, but yes, there is fouling and it is regrettable.

[chuff]

Sorry for assuming 'dog related incident' meant attacks, it was just they way it read to me. Does anyone know what they're referring to?

[Applespider]

chuff Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In my mind, once one sector of the community is

> banned, it opens it up for others to follow. Why

> ban the dogs and not cyclists/roller

> blades/picnics/ball games ect. The parks are a

> public space for us all to use (respectfully). It

> seems like a slippery slope to campaign to ban any

> of us.

>

> I am a small dog owner that does keep my dog on a

> lead where instructed and picks up poo! I use

> Dulwich Park and rarely come across irresponsible

> owners, but know there are some out there. I

> generally have trouble with fast cycling while

> walking there but wouldn't dream of asking

> cyclists to be banned. Maybe to slow down when

> pedestrians are about but otherwise the park is

> there for all of us to enjoy and that's the way it

> should stay.

Well said - there are annoying cyclists in Dulwich Park (especially those trying to do Strava laps at peak times), annoying runners (especially on 'race nights' where they block the carriageway for all other users), annoying ice-cream queuers (especially when the queue goes across the carriageway rather than along it), annoying dog-walkers (who don't have their dogs on leads or under control or who feel it's a good idea to throw the ball to their dog across the path of a cyclist) but for the most part, we do all rub along together.

I do think dogs should be allowed off their leads in the park so long as the owner can keep control of them. It's not fair on them to expect their only exercise to be on a leash or along a pavement. So far as dog poo goes, the majority seems to be picked up these days compared to when I was a kid.

There are guidelines now for cycling speeds and areas where dogs should be on a short leash but neither are enforced. I suspect even if you made the rules stricter, the same people will break those rules unless there's punitive measures which would probably not be cost-effective.

[chuff]

And if it's the fouling thing then there always seems to be far more on the pavement than ever in the park!

[first mate]

chuff,

I think Southwark have deliberately been unclear because the survey is a fishing expedition. First suggest that there is a problem of some kind, then ask people if they are aware of dog related issues in a dodgy survey. For every person that answers 'yes' bearing in mind that it might be something quite minor, Southwark can start to build stats that say x% of respondents say there are issues with dogs in our parks.

If a similar survey was done with similar wording about any other sector of park users you could build a substantial number of seemingly anti people too. As you point out, we all have the odd issue with each other but we generally rub along.

[first mate]

Applespider,

you make a very good point- park speed limits (is it 12mph)don't seem to be well enforced at all. It is tempting to mount an online survey now to ask if anyone has experienced any cyclist related issues, and see what happens. My issue would be that I often don't hear them coming behind me and feel that if I stepped out by only a few inches I'd be a gonner.

BTW all for cycling, just using above as an example of the Southwark survey MO.

[chuff]

Maybe there is a way of forcing them to reissue the survey? As you just said a yes or no answer to a general dog issue could be anything from smelly poo bins to a nasty dog bite to a person.

James, can you help with this?

[chuff]

We could be heading down the 'no more than 5 school children in any one area' route if we're not careful.

[aquarius moon]

I envy anybody who has small dogs & feels safe walking them in the park. Whether it is Peckham Rye (my local), Dulwich etc., is irrelevant.

I haven't walked my 3 yorkie crosses in the park for 3 years.

Why?

Because they had been set upon on numerous occasions, by larger dogs. These were mainly staffs/bull breeds, but not always.

Said dogs were always off-lead & ran up to mine, who have always been on leads.

My little dogs are over-friendly to all & wouldn't hurt a fly, so if a larger dog takes a dislike to one of them & attacks it, what chance do they stand?

My views: There should be areas in parks where dogs should only be walked on leads. That way, I could safely take mine back there, knowing loose dogs would not be approaching.

Other areas for walking dogs off-lead, so that people like myself wouldn't go there.

I filled in the survey as a dog owner, but unfortunately did say yes to dog related issues in Peckham Rye Park. I also added that I think all dogs should be kept on leads while on streets/pavement walking.

I always clean up after my dogs & don't have any problems with dog mess either in my road or the park, as I think most people locally are responsible dog owners.

If I owned large breed dogs, I might think differently, but my priority is keeping my dogs safe.

[chuff]

Sorry to hear that Aquarius moon, I have an overly friendly mini dachshund that will approach any dog to play. With the exception of one dog that was muzzled and definitely didn't like her, it's been a lovely experience socialising and playing with all breeds and sizes of dog. I only ever go to Dulwich park and find that most of the dogs there are very well socialised. Maybe you could walk them on a lead around the pond area at dulwich? If you go through the court lane gate and straight through the middle via the cafe, you shouldn't encounter many dogs off lead as they're supposed to be on lead there.

Agree about dogs off lead on the pavement.

[aquarius moon]

Dulwich is too far for me as I live over the other side of Peckham Rye park.

I think possibly other dogs may see mine as a threat because there are 3 of them (pack instinct etc?)

I pavement walk my dogs one at a time now, which is less fun for them & very time consuming for me.

But at least there is less chance of them being attacked.

[chuff]

The tricky thing is that if dogs aren't allowed off lead anywhere, they don't get socialised when young and are more likely to be aggressive to other dogs.

It's possible the pack thing could be a red rag to some dogs, I've not seen that before but I'm sorry your dogs don't get to run and play safely.

I've not seen of the leaflets in dulwich park btw, I will look tomorrow.