Southwark Dogs in Parks public consultation - deadline 16 Sept 2013

[mummali]

As a daily user of the park - and a liker of dogs too - I have witnessed many occasions where dog owners allow their dogs off the lead, but take responsibility for them, and clear up after them too. I have also witnessed dogs off the lead running straight up to and barking at cyclists (on the tarmac) and runners (on the sand track), and the dog owners shouting very unpleasantly at those cyclists and runners ...?? As a walker, cyclist and runner, it does seem particularly unfair that some (thankfully only a few) dog owners do not seem to realise that it is not that other park-users are scared of their pets, but that their pets are also likely to cause an accident if running straight at legs/wheels (I've encountered both unfortunately), with likelihood of damage to the person as well as to the dogs. Like I said I have no problem with dogs, but owners do need to take responsibility for their pets' behaviour, and if they are likely to run at other park-users then take some sensible action - without shouting at the cyclists/runners preferably.

[bonniebird]

I make you right mummali, also though I would like to say, I make my dogs come and wait whilst cyclists/joggers are going by, if I hear them quick enough, some are so fast, some see me making them wait and nod of thanks or verbally thank me, nice, others just whizz past without saying a word, the worst culprits are dads at the front, with children on bikes behind, NOT ALL, some do say thanks, but if someone were waiting for me to pass and I had children I would teach them to say thanks in passing too, politeness costs nothing.

[first mate]

BB I agree, good manners cut both ways. A fair number of cyclists like to power cycle through the parks and I have been startled a number of times walking my dog out of the park. On these occasions the cyclist bears down at top speed, approaching from behind and giving no warning.

Many, many times I have stood aside to let parents and toddlers go through park entrances first, without a thank you or acknowledgement of any kind....they are not deliberately rude, they are simply oblivious, the same goes for the power cyclists and for those who walk their dogs without consideration for others.

We all need to be more aware of others and that parks are shared spaces. Courtesy and consideration all round is the answer.

[mako]

Parks are shared spaces but not all type of users should have equal use of all parts. The playground is clearly for children, the marked football pitches for playing football and the track area is primarily for disabled car drivers, cyclists, roller skaters etc who cannot use any other part of the park. It is not primarily for those walking dogs who have plenty of other areas to walk their dogs. For starters they could start by using the areas where there is a path rather than the track. saying to cyclists they cant go fast is comparable to saying dogs can come but shouldnt run fast.

[first mate]

Mako, no dogs should not be allowed to run at strange people at top speed and in the same way, neither should cyclists, especially if they are approaching from behind. Quite apart from that there are speed limits in the park, cyclists could use bells to warn they are approaching and, finally, cyclists and joggers also like to use the perimeter path in the summer months (the area known as the dog walk) and some get annoyed when dogs are there too.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that dogs should use the children's playgrounds or football pitches when games are being played or teams are warming up/training.....have they? So not sure what point you are trying to make.

[mako]

The point i am making is that in most areas different users have priority. Dog walkers complaining about cyclists on the track do not need to be there, so shouldnt complain if a cyclist comes close to them. The point about the other areas is that it is accepted that these are for particular users, whereas the dog walkers see themselves as equal users of the track which I dont think they should.

[first mate]

Mako, areas of the park to which dog owners can have access with dogs on lead would be inaccessible without some use of the track, so your point does not stand. Perhaps you are confusing areas of access off lead and areas of access on lead? Dog owners may use the track with dogs on lead,anywhere, any time, they have as much right to be there as any other park user.

On a personal note, I have been startled a number of times on the track by cyclists approaching very close from behind, at speed and without any warning, when my dog has been on a short lead. It has felt as though I was missed by inches.

[mako]

Mako, areas of the park to which dog owners can have access with dogs on lead would be inaccessible without some use of the track,

This is not true. There is a path. What bit of the park do you need to walk on the road (walk on not cross) to get to. There isnt one.

Dog owners may use the track with dogs on lead,anywhere, any time, they have as much right to be there as any other park user.

As you know the point I am making is that they shouldnt have as much right to be there as they do not need to be there to walk their dogs. They can use the paths or the grass.

On a personal note to avoid being startled get off the track. Use the path or grass. Cyclists need the hard surface as do roller skaters, buggy pushers etc. you do not so be aware of others, or stop moaning that cyclists are cycling near you.

[VanessaPMR]

What do dog owners think of dog nappies?

I always thought our problem with dog poo could be resolved by requesting dogs wear dog nappies when out in the park... that way the non-responsible dog owning minority are very clearly recognisable as such...

[first mate]

Mako,

you are missing the point- according to the byelaws dog owners have as much right to use the track, provided their dog is on lead, as any other park user. The question of 'need'as you put it is subjective.

I would imagine that children on roller skates and mums pushing buggies may also feel threatened by cyclists speeding excessively..I am sure that feeling is not unique to dog owners. Unless you are suggesting that cyclists give other park users a wider berth?

Anyway, we will not agree on this point and I see little to be gained by continuing.

Vanessa PMR- I think dog nappies are an utterly bizarre idea, but I feel sure your tongue is firmly in your cheek.

[mako]

First Mate, you often make some very good points however despite your call for consideration for others, when it comes down to it you let yourself down by joining the 'I have rights brigade'. It is not about a legal right it is about showing some consideration for others. cyclists, buggies etc need the tarmac. You and your dog dont. So keep off or stop moaning and please dont avoid the questions you cant answer such as where it is not possible to use the path or simply cross the tarmac to get to a dog area as this weakens your more valid posts.

Cyclists obviously should slow down or give a wide berth to mums or dads pushing buggies, they shouldnt need to to dogs or their owners because they dont need to be there. Why go on the track. GO ON THE PATH

[mako]

in fact your quoting of byelaws goes back to my point about football pitches and playgrounds.You are allowed to picnic on the football pitch, you can play football in the playground, you can walk your dog on the only bit where cyclists can go. But in taking this inconsiderate stance you lose your rights to moan if things arent perfect for you when you do so.

[Mustard]

What is the track and what is the path?

[bonniebird]

just to say, I don't walk on a bike track as such, I walk on a path and the bikes do sometimes come up fast, but there are also a lot of responsible safe cyclists as there are dog walking folk :)

[mako]

By track i mean the tarmac road. The path is the bit with the kirbstones which goes around most of road.

[Ron70]

VanessaPMR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What do dog owners think of dog nappies?

>

> I always thought our problem with dog poo could be

> resolved by requesting dogs wear dog nappies when

> out in the park... that way the non-responsible

> dog owning minority are very clearly recognisable

> as such...

That's genius, right there :-)

[first mate]

Mako, it is your assumption that dog owners will only ever need or want to walk on grass, there could be various reasons why the dog owner prefers to stay off grass and walk on a hard surface.

I believe that it is reasonable for dog owners to keep dogs on a lead on the track area. I also think it is reasonable for cyclists to adhere to park speed limits and to slow down if other users of the track ( mums and buggies, elderly and disabled, children, joggers, roller skaters, dog walkers etc..) are in clear view. I think this shows consideration on both sides, I don't understand what it is about this that irks you so.

Anyhow, I really will sit on my hands after this as we risk going on and on........

[mako]

As i typed before. Walk on the path. It is not made of grass.

[bawdy-nan]

I'm very confused now. Some posters seem to be suggesting that dogs should be on leads when using the tarmac road area - is that right?

I use the park for cycling and walking and playing with the kids. When I cycle I go slowly (I know what it's like when you're a pedestrian and a bike whizzes past) but I find the dogs very very hard to predict especially when they're being walked in a group and off the lead. They're just playing, I know, but they run out without warning, run across the path, zig-zag etc etc and, obviously, don't heed a bell or a "look out". Even going at a leisurely pace I've nearly come a cropper because of a dog several times in the last week.

I don't want to see dogs restricted in the park but I've been watching this thread with interest. This morning, when I had to break for a dog off the lead that suddenly changed direction and ran across my path nearly causing injury to it and me to fall off, I tried to talk to the dog owner who was very very defensive. I hope I wasn't rude, I certainly didn't mean to be. I just felt that there had been a near miss and I was concerned. I asked about the dogs on lead rule (I remain unclear) and the dog walker angrily assured me that she was in the right. I said that I knew it was a shared park and I tried to go slowly but that dogs were so unpredictable on the path. Like toddlers. she said. Which I suppose they are (if a little more bitey and fast). Also, I've had toddlers and, I suppose, if I were walking down a shared path I'd keep an eye on them and make sure they weren't likely to get hurt. I remember we'd often move onto the grassy areas because I knew there were fewer hazards and we could be more relaxed/

[taper]

Isn't the issue here about restricting cycling in Dulwich Park?

[first mate]

There is a path around the perimeter edge of Dulwich Park but not the track that goes through it. For many reasons the central track is popular with all park users, the wooded path area that runs parallel to it is also used by pedestrians and cyclists alike. In other parks, like PR, paths into the park are non existant, there is only track.

Bawdy Nan,I believe that in Dulwich Park dogs should be kept on a lead on the track. My sympathies are with you in this case, you were showing awareness of your surroundings and the other park user should have done the same. I guess we have all had some near misses. That said I think most of us rub along well and the park is generally a happy place to be.