Southwark Dogs in Parks public consultation - deadline 16 Sept 2013

[elloriac]

I haven't completed the survey yet, but thought others might be interested in contributing - beginning questions are of the very vague type, hopefully it will improve!

From http://www.southwark.gov.uk/dogsinparks

Dogs in parks: We want you to have your say

Southwark Council welcomes responsible dog owners and their dogs to our parks and open spaces. Unfortunately incidents relating to dogs have been increasing, and we want to address this.

We think that irresponsible dog owners are in the minority, but they are costing the tax payer money spent on clearing up dog fouling, and affecting the enjoyment of some visitors to our parks.

Survey 2013

We are seeking your views on what you think the issues are and what you would like us to do to combat them. Please complete our online survey by the deadline of 16 September 2013

This is your chance to give us your views, which we will use to influence our plan of action.

[boosboss]

I'm waiting for more information on the stated increase in dog related incidents. I've requested details under the FOI act so I can see the said increase for myself. As a very regular park user, I can't say I've noticed an obvious increase and am not willing to just accept that there is one. I find the approach to this survey and the questions within it very leading.

[James Barber]

Hi boosboos,

I've also asked for the same details but from the director of the service.

The survey gives no context to any of its questions. They seem rather leading and don't nclude any do nothing options.

I've also had ED residents tell me it was solely being handed out to people with pushchairs and not dog walkers. This doesnt give the impression of being a real consultation.

So I'm torn between asking people to complete the survey and not completing it because it appears flawed. I

[LadyDeliah]

There seems to have been an increasingly anti-dog attitude displayed on forums and in the media over the past few years which does not appear to be based on any solid facts.

Many of you may say, so what, but my 14 year old daughter was shouted at aggressively last week on two seperate occasions by adults for walking our dog off the lead in Dulwich Park. She is now extremely reluctant to take the dog to the park because she is scared of getting more abuse.

All of these negative campaigns (dog / cyclists / benefits / disability / immigration etc) give a green light to aggressive arseholes like the ones who verbally abused my 14 year old, to have a go at other people and feel justified in doing so.

With politicians of all colours riding the populist bandwagon, however, I think this kind of thing will only get worse in the future.

[first mate]

I'm deeply sceptical about this and echo boosboss observation in that there has been no visible increase in so-called dog incidents, that I have noticed, as a regular day in day out park user.

I think that we should demand context and detail from the council. How is a "dog incident" defined; what are the figures and what data are those figures being compared with? There is a perception, albeit misguided, that there is a deeply anti-dog contingent within the council, and this rather odd survey does nothing to change one's mind about that.

The greatest damage I have observed in the park to date has been done by humans- tree branches being ripped down (sorry, but I've seen kids doing this a lot); grafitti on the japanese summerhouse that had to be cleaned (at what expense) only recently.

If there have been incidents under the DDA these will have been logged- so let's see the data. If we are talking about dog poo, again I would like to see the data.

Southwark does seem to be trying to push this one hard and I wonder if they have an agenda they are not admitting to? There is already one alternative school setting up on Peckham Rye, they will be using the park for education purposes. No problem with that, but it is known that schools are short on playing fields and one can imagine that more schools will want to use the park for sports during the week- off lead dogs will get in the way, won't they?

Southwark are so keen to get dogs out of the parks and yet show an absolute failure to deal with the real danger which is dogs off lead on the public streets- why not put as much energy into that? I believe the reason is possibly because Southwark need to use the park space to replace the school playing fields that were sold off- with a burgeoning population of children on the way they have to do something. Offlead dogs are just inconvenient.

I think Southwark will have a battle on their hands, under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 it is quite clear that the needs of domestic animals must be met and the majority of dogs require daily, offlead exercise. For those who already own dogs these control orders would be a massive and unjustified imposition.

For what it is worth, a number of trainer have, over the years, approached Southwark to give weekly dog training classes in some of the parks- but there's always a reason why this cannot happen. Surely it's a no-brainer, if Southwark wants across the board, good dog ownership, at least allow some training and education to be given in the parks. The dogs would always be on a lead, so why not...?

[first mate]

FWIW, I have just tried to access the form, but you cannot do so unless you sign in or register with Southwark, even though it states that you can just click and access the form without doing either.

James Barber, is there any way you could get the council to rectify this? I imagine that not everyone will want to sign up or register with the council online.

I also wonder how the many elderly dog owners, who may not necessarily be online, are to be heard in this survey? The whole thing seems dodgy to say the least

[PeckhamRose]

Fair point. But it's attitude of people who confront other people which can not be regulated, changed, altered, amended [checks thesaurus] or improved. Can we have a survey about people?!

[first mate]

I also managed it second time.

On of the first and most leading questions goes something like "do you think there are any dog-related issues in the park?" I have deliberately interpreted this as "do I think there is an increase in dog related issues", and so have answered no.

For some people, the mere presence of a dog on lead and totally under control, would be an issue, so I think this question is deeply flawed and will lead to very misleading results. The survey is heavily biased from the start.

How would we answer if we were asked "do you think there are people -related issues in the park" or replace people with children, cyclists...

[Earl Aelfheah]

Terribly designed survey. I would welcome any attempt to encourage more responsible ownership however.

[mako]

I would support an order that limited the number of dogs that dog walkers can bring to the park.

[first mate]

I agree, responsible ownership is a must, just like responsible parenting, cycling etc..

Could Southwark be persuaded to allow some educational training classes for dog owners, or even would-be owners, to take place in the park? They always seem to say it is not possible but give no clear reason why. If other pursuits like fitness training (paid for by groups of clients) as well as alternative educational establishments are allowed to make use of the park, I cannot see why dog training should not be added to the list.

[first mate]

mako,

no need the limits are already there in law, it only needs a park warden to apprise themsleves of the law, I believe.

[joseph holly]

I went down to Peckham Rye Park (walking the dogs !) and noticed that there is a stack of ?Dogs in Parks ? What do you think?? leaflets in the doorway of the Park Wardens? office.

Having now seen the leaflet, I am also extremely concerned that like the survey, the leaflets seem to be adopting a skewed view from the outset. The premise appears to be ?There is a problem with dogs in the park ? what do you think needs to be done ?? rather than ?Do you think there is a problem with dogs in the park, and if so, what do you think needs to be done ??

The impression one gets is that the decision may have already been taken to introduce designated dog areas to all Southwark parks, and that the council is simply seeking public support for this before they spend money on it.

My family (and dogs) have been Southwark residents, and daily (in the summer, twice daily) users of Peckham Rye Park for over 20 years. In all that time we have never witnessed or been party to a dog-related problem or incident. The many dog-owners we have met have all been responsible and careful about clearing up after their dogs.

I think something which may or may not be an issue in other Southwark parks has been automatically presumed to be an issue in all Southwark parks, and in my experience this is emphatically not the case in Peckham Rye Park.

The introduction of designated dog areas in Peckham Rye Park would ruin the enjoyment of a large proportion of the public who currently use it. Dog-walkers who currently allow their dog(s) to run free off the leash with no problem would be confined to a specific area ? this would mean that more dogs would be more often in closer contact with each other, and this could well lead to dog-related problems.

In my view, this survey has been poorly drafted and is therefore a waste of council tax funds. It is prejudiced against dog-owners in general, and seeks from the outset to justify the imposition of punitive restrictions on dogs and dog-owners in all Southwark parks because of the transgressions of an irresponsible minority in some Southwark parks. It would be far better to introduce measures to target and punish the irresponsible small minority that are the cause of the problem.

[first mate]

I think that word needs to spread amongst the considerable dog owning community and support from sympathetic councillors organised, as well as some kind of protest- perhaps an online protest could be organised and forwarded to Southwark?

Since James Barber has already commented on this thread perhaps he could suggest a way forward? I suspect there will be growing concern about what appears to be, as the last poster calls it, "a done deal".

I know that Boosboss is rather good at this sort of thing and perhaps he will have some ideas too.

[DaveR]

"The introduction of designated dog areas in Peckham Rye Park would ruin the enjoyment of a large proportion of the public who currently use it."

Really? I haven't personally had problems with dogs in Peckham Rye park but there have been a number of threads where people have had genuine and sometimes serious problems with the behaviour of dogs and their owners. There are many on this thread who appear willing to assume that Southwark have some sort of anti-dog agenda, but are also willing to assume that 'the public' have essemtially the same views as dog-owners. I think there is a valid debate to be had as to whether the default position should be that dogs have unrestricted access to all parts of parks and similar public spaces.

[first mate]

DaveR,

Yes, debate okay, but Southwark have already started by massively skewing that debate by the style of survey- when you see a skew you might be justified in thinking that minds are already made up and the survey/"debate" is merely window dressing.

Of course, it is not clear either what dog control orders Southwark have in mind, but feel even something minor could be thin end of the wedge. I just do feel there's another agenda here and it is to do with schools and access to playing fields- the park is just about the only land left the council have at their disposal.

[Willard]

Excellent post Joseph Holly.

Since becoming a dog owner 6 months ago and a regular walker in Peckham Rye Park, I've been pleasantly surprised by meeting all the fellow dog walkers and by how responsible and friendly they are. I've never witnessed an incident and the overall experience has really enhanced my enjoyment of the community as a whole.

Nothing to see here Southwark Council - move along.

[first mate]

In regard to professional dog walkers and numbers of dogs, I believe the DEFRA recommendation is no more than 6 and many councils stipulate no more than 4. At any rate I don't think a dog walker would be insured to walk more than 6 at a time and every dog walker should have the right cover for their work and that inlcudes transport in cars, which is also covered by law. Cannot remember if professional dog walkers have to be licensed or not, but anyone walking more than 6 dogs at atime would be in breach of insurance contract and probably council byelaws.

[mako]

even with 'just' 4 dogs the walkers cant see all the dogs and what they are up to. 'Fouling' isnt likely to be reported anywhere so those asking for proof in figures are missing the point. cant believe anyone can claim to regularly use the parks and not have seen any 'fouling' in 20 years. 'Fouling' is an incident in this instance.

[scotch]

I feel that this is a great idea. I am not a hater of dogs but I do feel that there are some very irresponsible dog owners/walkers that use Peckham Rye park.

My son was chased by a dog, with it barking and biting at his ankles. Since then he is, obviously, petrified of dogs. We hear words such as "it's ok, my dog loves children and won't hurt them..." But I totally disagree. Who knows what turns dogs to savage people/ other dogs but it does and can happen.

Apart from this fear, I am totally fed up of returning from the park and having to clean bike and pushchair wheels that are coveted in dog mess. It repulses me and infuriates me that there ARE irresponsible owners out there.

Several times I have witnessed owners looking the other way trying not to notice that actually their dog is having a poo!

So, I welcome the questionnaire... I'd certainly have my honest say!!

[JaneTutor]

It would be a shame to limit dog walking areas in Peckham park. There already exist areas where dogs are not allowed. Irresponsible dog owners don't really care either way. Is there any actual research or evidence to suggest Peckham Park is a growing problem area? Some detail and consultation would be great. A policy might be useful too eg depending on size/average attendance in X park, X amount of the park will be made available to dogs ... etc.

Jane (and Bobby the dog)

[MarleyLover]

I was walking in Peckham Rye Park with my dog yesterday and had a leaflet given to me. I am getting increasingly fed up of the dog hating that has recently been sparked up. Questionnaires like this on add more fuel to the fire.

Are dogs now to become and an extinct species now?

[first mate]

Jane,

I agree. Do those who complain about dog fouling really, truly believe that the irresponsible minority will relinquish their anti-social ways because of dog control orders? The anti-social few tend to be so in a variety of ways, and letting their dog crap everywhere is just one of them.

Dog fouling is unpleasant, no two ways about it, and many dog owners will ask each other for bags or tell someone who hasn't picked up to do so. Hand on heart I really think it has improved, not got worse. As for the health issues, yes they are true up to a point, but there are a host of other nasties lurking in the undergrowth- fox poo is dangerous, as it rat urine, Weil's can kill you, it's just that people are not focussed on that.

Control orders will heavily penalise the responsible majority and those who couldn't care less will simply carry on. I would bet that if control orders are put in the canine poo levels will stay the same but the council will get a few quid in on fines for the newbie dog owner whose puppy has accidently wandered into a no dogs area. At this point Southwark might then press to ban dogs from all parks full stop....mission accomplished.

I just cannot see the wardens issuing on the spot fines to the I couldn't the care less minority- they'd probably be too scared for starters. I'll never forget the community wardens who were terrified to go within 100 yards of an abandoned dog on Peckham Rye- they had no idea what to do.

[mako]

First mate

What do you suggest is done about the 'scary' couldnt care less minority of dog walkers then?

[first mate]

Mako,

Enforced training;)

Seriously, if you put in laws they have to be policed and enforced to be effective, that means an awful lot of park wardens. The wardens also have to be prepared to go mano a mano with a certain type of person and I just cannot see it happening. Surely the same problem applies to all forms of anti-social behaviour, first you have to catch them at it and then you have to enforce whatever law/punishment it is and that, in reality, is not easy to do.

So, to make Dog Control Orders effective as a means to controlling levels of dog fouling in parks (purported levels we still need to see some hard evidence for) they would need to put major resources into patrolling personnel with the ability to enforce on the spot fines. Perhaps they'd need to put CCTV all over the parks. Is this a good use of money.....? Is dog fouling really the number one threat to society right now..?

The only way you'd stop the fouling is by banning all dogs from all parks...and I've a feeling that there are those in Southwark that have this very aim in mind- it would free the parks up for other purposes.

So, as a dog owner, of course I'm against it. It would make keeping dogs in the borough almost impossible and alter centuries of tradition of people owning pet dogs. In my view, dogs have an important role in the daily lives of many and such a swingeing change to their lives is simply unjustifiable.