Cyclists &Pavements

[foxtailandfern]

So do you suggest people jump into the road when they see cyclist wizzing into them on the pavement???

StraferJack Wrote:

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> People are nuts

>

> This is not a problem

>

> People are acting with such entitlement. If you

> are on a public highway, keep em peeled. That's

> all

[reeko]

Sorry Lady D,

If the road is too dangerous get off and push. That way everyone gets home alive with no major injury. My mum was badly knocked by two kids riding bikes on the pavement. The jolt aggravated her sciatica and she ended up being hospitalised. Pavements are for pedestrians. End of.

[LadyDeliah]

Not always Reeko.

More and more pavements are being designated for shared use and I don't see the trend reversing, so in a decade I would expect this whole issue to be relegated to some kind of funny old fashioned viewpoint that only grumpy old men remember.

By the way, for anyone who wants to know, it's footpaths (i.e. running next to roads) that we are not supposed to cycle on, so paths in parks and other paths are fine for cyclists to use unless there are specific bylaws to prohibit cycling.

[matryx]

Edit: Sorry Taper - missed your sarcasm entirely. However I'll leave this here as information for anyone who still believes in road-tax.

-----

Road tax has not existed for years and years and years. ( It was abolished in 1937 )

Clamouring to it as an argument does nothing to help either side of the argument, it just paints you as ill-informed and will hasten people's desire to just disregard your whole point of view as a result.

Vehicle Excise Duty is based on the emissions of your vehicle. Green vehicles also pay nothing. (As do a whole range of other exceptions)

http://ipayroadtax.com/

Taper wrote:

>

> They should pay Road Tax.

And as a separate edit for cyclists - I can highly recommend the bikehub app from www.bikehub.co.uk

I have used it successfully to route myself along safe and quiet streets away from traffic and dangerous junctions. I've never needed to ride along the pavement and I have yet to see a single case where anyone needs to where a simple route alteration would save them the effort entirely.

It has wonderful voice directions so you don't need to look at your phone (which you really wouldn't want to do while cycling anyway) and it routes through the cyclestreets map (which is an opensource repository including cycle-friendly routes and paths). I was able to find a faster, safer, quieter route to work. Can't recommend it enough.

[reeko]

OK lady D, unless in parks or designated shared use, pavements are for pedestrians and roads are for cyclists. As your tag says, cyclists are TRAFFIC, and if no other traffic can go on the pavement, then why should cyclists.

[taper]

Matryx

Read my post again. I was joking. I do not think pedestrians should pay road tax or take a test. And like every cyclist, I know the "road tax doesn't exist" point inside out.

[LadyDeliah]

Reeko, because we don't want to be killed or seriously injured. I thought I'd already explained that in detail.

[spider69]

If pedestrians refused to let you pass whilst you were using the pavement would you use the road again?

How does it work

[LadyDeliah]

I'd either wait for a gap or get off and push. Same as when anyone else wants to pass a pedestrian when there's no space.

[Zebedee Tring]

Well, all that I can say is that if you (or indeed any other cyclist) hit me while you're cycling on the pavement, I will be bloddy annoyed and will act in self-defence (that is, if I am still conscious).

[LadyDeliah]

Like I said, I've been cycling for 25 years and never hit a pedestrian on a pavement.

The increase in space shared for cyclists and pedestrians is a strong indicator that the danger to pedestrians from cyclists is minimal. Whereas the quote earlier from the air ambulance shows the huge risks faced by cyclists on the road.

Improve road safety and I'll be happy to never cycle on pavements.

By the way, the percentage of my journeys done on pavements is tiny because I am an experienced cyclist and only need to get out of the traffic on very dangerous bits of road. So I don't really care if it gets some people bent out of shape, because my safety is more important to me than their intolerance.

In regards penalty fares etc. I will refuse to pay any if I get stopped and I will drag it through the courts to highlight the issues. I will not apologise for acting in a way that has the potential to save my life, which carries an infinitesimally small risk to others.

[reeko]

Sorry Lady D, why is it OK for you to pick and choose when to obey the rules of the highway, and not for others, when do you draw the line? I see couriers regularly crash red lights but they are also some of the most skilled riders on the road and are very good at avoiding trouble. Is that a good enough excuse for their behaviour? No - then roads being too busy for you to cycle on is not a good enough reason for you to cycle on the pavement when you can easily get off and push.

It is precisely this kind of attitude that helps give us all a bad name and increases overall agression against cyclists. If everyone played by the rules then we would all get along alot better.

[spider69]

The last post from LD just about sums it up.

Hope you do get caught.

[LadyDeliah]

The rules were designed with priority given to heavy, dangerous vehicles and not with cyclists in mind.

I plead the defence of necessity to any rules / laws broken and would do so in court. I'd love to get a ruling on this point given the lack of any co-ordinated policy on preventing cyclists' death and serious injury.

[reeko]

Fine, if you want to dress your choices up as direct action, how about taking a ride up and down the pavement of downing street. until you do, your cycling on the pavement is just you choosing to ignore the rules of the highway to suit yourself, making you no different to all the cyclists that people regularly complain about.

[GEEKASAURUS]

I think the problem is arguing about absolutes when clearly life is full of grey areas. There are times when I've mounted the pavement to avoid mental dangerous traffic, I've done so by slowing down and giving way as is right. I think it's reasonable for cyclists to do this if the pay due care. Just as it's reasonable for us to expect pediestrians to turn and look before stepping out into the road. Furthermore if people are allowed to cross streets when there is no green man then why is it so wrong for us cyclists to keep going when a) it's safe b)stopping loses hard earned momentum and c) often jumping the lights early provides a distinct survival benefit (as alluded to earlier and something i experience several times along my route).

The argument over shared space is also difficult. I come along that useless bit of shared space in peckham next to the bus lane and specsavers etc. It's a nightmare as pedestrians don't seem to know what's expected (I think cyclists deserve some credit for putting up with some very reckless pedestrian behaviour here). This is despite the fact that undoubtedly some of these people use the street day in day out.

Protected cycle space and junction redesign, as has been highlighted abroad and in numerous studies is the only solution.

We don't cause emissions, we don't wear the roads, we rarely hurt or kill pedestrians. All things one can't say about vehicles yet why the hell is it everyone (not limited to or even particularly meaning this thread)has so much aggro about us. I think, to be completely frank, given the above we have good reason to be a bit smug and expect a bit of compromise from those in charge (off topic but has to be said).

Over long, sorry.

S

[LadyDeliah]

Reeko, anyone who knows me, knows I fight for change when I think it's important, so no, it's not an excuse.

I would have imagined that after reading my detailed explanations (if you did actually bother to read them) you'd have realised that this is something I have given a lot of thought to.

This is a life and death issue for increasing numbers of people, so I will continue do what I think is right, to be noisy on this and try to do my bit to elicit positive change.

Change often comes about by refusing to accept the status quo.

[LadyDeliah]

I agree with Geekasaurus too.

There has to be a hard look at how the roads are failing cyclists and how they can be re-designed to be more inclusive of everyone who uses them.

[reeko]

I have read everything you have written, I just completely disagree with your rationale, and maintain that the way to encourage good behaviour and elicit positive change is for everyone to play by the rules. Picking and choosing as you just gives other cyclists the right to do the same, which further fuels the anti cycling lobby. If you want to break the rules becuse it is more convenient for you to reduce your risk at the expense of pedestrians then fine, but don't pretend that it is a political act or that you are doing other cyclists a favour.

[uncleglen]

5 years ago my sister stepped out of her place of work one day and was immediately hit by a cyclist on the pavement. She fell awkwardly and her foot is still not right today. The cyclist did not even stop....

[LadyDeliah]

You are entitled to disagree with my opinion, but assuming to know my motivation to be other than I have stated, is arrogant and presumptuous of you.

[LadyDeliah]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> 5 years ago my sister stepped out of her place of

> work one day and was immediately hit by a cyclist

> on the pavement. She fell awkwardly and her foot

> is still not right today. The cyclist did not even

> stop....

If you want to do top trumps, my 20 year old neice got her body smashed up and died within minutes, when she was hit by a speeding car.

My brother and his wife have never been the same again.

[LadyDeliah]

If you'd like to base your opinion on facts rather than anecdotes, here is some info on cyclist deaths:

Every year in this country around 19,000 cyclists are killed or injured in reported road accidents, including around 3,000 who are killed or seriously injured.

Cyclist Casualties, 2011

Killed 107

Seriously Injured 3,085

Slightly Injured 16,023

Total 19,215

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx

[Applespider]

Lady D - I think you are wrong. Unless the pavement is specifically shared use, I don't think you should be on it while riding; get off and push if you feel so unsafe on that stretch of road - or find another route. While you may never have hit a pedestrian, you are likely to have alarmed them. No motorist has ever hit me on my bike but those who go past on a narrow stretch when I'm not expecting them, do give me a fright - and a cyclist going past a pedestrian unexpectedly is scary for them.

For less confident or new cyclists in general, it's worth mentioning that there is free one-on-one cycle training available (look on the council website) which can really help with how to ride assertively on the road, how to find good routes for your most common journeys and how to deal with nasty junctions/stretches on those routes. I did it a few years ago before starting to cycle to work regularly and it was really helpful.

[reeko]

I don't see where I have been presumptuous,. All my conclusions have been drawn directly from what you have written.

You choose to ride on the pavement to reduce risk to you.

You choose not to push your bike, even though this would reduce your risk by the same amount, therefore I concluded that the convenience of getting home a bit quicker and not having to get off were factors in you choosing to cycle on pavements. If this is incorrect then please explain.

You made statements such as you would love to get caught and argue the piece through the courts, but you have not indicated that you have taken any direct action to increase the chances of you getting caught, hence my conclusion that your stance is more for your convenience than from any political motivation.

One definition of arrogance is "making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights". I would argue that on the evidence of this thread you fit the bill much more snugly than me, when I need to use the pavement when on my bike, I get off and push. Thems the rules