Save TigerSharks Swim Club at Alleyns

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 28/06/2024 at 14:51, Penguin68 said:

I have no knowledge, let alone inside knowledge, about the workings of Alleyn’s or of TigerSharks...I can hypothesise 

 

On 29/06/2024 at 09:00, vladi said:

In all probability...

If you don't know what you're on about, don't speculate - just listen to those who do.

[Broca_Flat]

I'm pointing out a discrepancy - which is not disingenuous at all. I was thinking maybe I was being pedantic to count the non-term time holiday as part of the notice time, but now that I think about - it's a bit disingenuous of YOU to try to whip up sympathy by saying its 2 weeks notice, when actually now you're implying yes, it's 8 weeks. At least be honest and say they gave them 8 weeks notice - and then make your argument that for a business of this size it's still not enough time. Also what is all this skullduggery around who said what to whom and why no one can know, but if you know you know, and if you'd don't, shut it? Honestly, I was very sympathetic and thought they should have got more notice, but now, whatever! GL!

[VPaiva]

7 hours ago, Broca_Flat said:

I'm pointing out a discrepancy - which is not disingenuous at all. I was thinking maybe I was being pedantic to count the non-term time holiday as part of the notice time, but now that I think about - it's a bit disingenuous of YOU to try to whip up sympathy by saying its 2 weeks notice, when actually now you're implying yes, it's 8 weeks. At least be honest and say they gave them 8 weeks notice - and then make your argument that for a business of this size it's still not enough time. Also what is all this skullduggery around who said what to whom and why no one can know, but if you know you know, and if you'd don't, shut it? Honestly, I was very sympathetic and thought they should have got more notice, but now, whatever! GL!

Think things through - it's less than 2 weeks as term is finishing, so it is accurate. And also, it's 2 weeks as he is no longer expected to be there ever according to what was told to him (so whether it's 2, 8 or 16, it is "all the same" as he would no longer be there). So, as there are no more classes taking place between now and the new term in September, it was 2 weeks notice... 

You talk about sympathy, but try and understand how much planning do you consider you can do when school breaks for term? How many meetings do you think can be arranged when everyone goes away for summer breaks? Do you understand the complication that the club is left in? This is just a community hub disassembled just like that, just because Alleyn's "feels like", and still very discriminatory, as they are not treating the other clubs the same way. 

 

Imagine you had a daughter or a son in a club, from which you expected them to learn from and continue their training in that sport/interest throughout the years. You wouldn't be too happy if just at the end of term their dance classes/football practice were announced to be discontinued, and come the new year, you would have to consider sending them to Lewisham or Blackheath instead of Alleyn's just because no more dance classes/football practice was available nearby as all other gyms and football grounds were taken by other clubs which taught at a level that you felt wasn't appropriate for your children (I know it is an extreme example, but it is given hoping you can understand the situation better) .

 

It is an abuse of power from Alleyn's, and that's coming from an institution that wants to be seen has having a strong moral code guiding their actions, and to have roots in the community too, so this is a huge drawback in those aims... Alleyn's absolutely not deserving of any sympathy here... 

[tiddles]

Sorry but I think Alleyn’s have behaved appallingly 

[sugarkanedee]

I too believer that Alleyn,s has behaved appalling.  

Dee

[elsowitsch]

I started going to tigersharks with my 9 year old about a year ago. We have both loved the chance to improve our technique and be challenged in ways I hadn’t been since I left university! Krys is exceptionally motivating and has a wonderful wry sense of humour. 

Although we were unlikely to send our children to Alleyn’s, it wasn’t completely out of the question. The way Krys was treated after serving the community for 27 years left me feeling very uncomfortable, and has inevitably coloured my view of Alleyn’s. Surely a school committed to its community and with strong ethical values would give someone more notice and treat them with more respect? Surely they would work with Krys to find a mutually agreeable solution before even thinking of giving him notice?
 

It’s not too late to correct things. I do hope Alleyn’s can see that. 

[Penguin68]

Not to be boring, but we have no idea (nor, possibly, should we) why Alleyn's terminated this long-standing agreement - which I suspect was probably annually renewed, although the contractual arrangement might have been longer. It may have been because Alleyn's could no longer offer the same availability, it may have been because the financials no longer made sense, it may have been because either party was unable to meet some element of the required conditions. This may either have come out of the blue (really only 8 weeks notice) or it may have followed negotiations which couldn't be concluded. Alleyn's are not idiots. There would be no reason to terminate a relationship if that was still financially beneficial and necessary conditions could be met. 

Mind you, if this was seen by Alleyn's as a 'charitable' enterprise (that is, it was a financial loss to them - no ideas if it is of course) - then it could probably not (as a business) continue to absorb a loss where it was no longer to be treated as an educational charity but a VAT-able business. Were I to be one of its customers I would be loathe for prices to me to rise whilst my supplier was giving away value to a third party. I don't believe TigerSharks is itself registered as a charity such that 'donations' (i.e. fees lower than costs) could be tax deductible. 

So, this may indeed be a consequence of stated Labour taxation plans. If you say something isn't a charity, but a business, then you have no right to expect it to continue to act as if it is one, if that disadvantages its business customers.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

2 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

It may have been ... it may have been ...it may have been ... no ideas...this may indeed be a consequence of stated Labour taxation plans. If you say something isn't a charity...

You obviously have a political bee in your bonnet about charging VAT on private school fees (although you are still confusing it with charitable status) in a year or more's time. Your long-winded speculation in the absence of any knowledge doesn't make any of that relevant to the topic at hand.

[Jules-and-Boo]

What does the school have to say on the matter?

[Broca_Flat]

14 hours ago, VPaiva said:

Think things through - it's less than 2 weeks as term is finishing, so it is accurate. And also, it's 2 weeks as he is no longer expected to be there ever according to what was told to him (so whether it's 2, 8 or 16, it is "all the same" as he would no longer be there). So, as there are no more classes taking place between now and the new term in September, it was 2 weeks notice... 

Stop lecturing for heaven's sake! Hard to wish you well when you're being so strident about anyone daring to question anything. Surely, there's a legal contract - so if you're saying you only had 2 weeks notice, when in reality it seems to be 8, then it's in your contract. Should they have shown courtesy beyond that? Sure, but if you're as strident with the school as you are with posters, they probably followed the letter of the legal contract, no more, no less.

[buntytrumpet]

It just seems like a school that wants to invest in the local community would support long established club that is helping multiple generations, rather than close it in order to start something new. Looking at the approaches of different headteachers, research does show you can see trends or styles of headship. Maybe current head isn't looking to get recognised for the long term community investment. Which isn't necessarily surprising given what sort of headteacher gets recognition by current system. This is a shame for the local people, but this may not be something that will affect the head/school leadership. 

[vladi]

14 hours ago, tiddles said:

Sorry but I think Alleyn’s have behaved appallingly 

How can you say that if you are not party to the contractual arrangements between the school and Krys.?

[alice]

Justice must be done yes but it also must be seen to be done and in this case it hasn’t been

[VPaiva]

21 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

Not to be boring, but we have no idea (nor, possibly, should we) why Alleyn's terminated this long-standing agreement - which I suspect was probably annually renewed, although the contractual arrangement might have been longer. It may have been because Alleyn's could no longer offer the same availability, it may have been because the financials no longer made sense, it may have been because either party was unable to meet some element of the required conditions. This may either have come out of the blue (really only 8 weeks notice) or it may have followed negotiations which couldn't be concluded. Alleyn's are not idiots. There would be no reason to terminate a relationship if that was still financially beneficial and necessary conditions could be met. 

Mind you, if this was seen by Alleyn's as a 'charitable' enterprise (that is, it was a financial loss to them - no ideas if it is of course) - then it could probably not (as a business) continue to absorb a loss where it was no longer to be treated as an educational charity but a VAT-able business. Were I to be one of its customers I would be loathe for prices to me to rise whilst my supplier was giving away value to a third party. I don't believe TigerSharks is itself registered as a charity such that 'donations' (i.e. fees lower than costs) could be tax deductible. 

So, this may indeed be a consequence of stated Labour taxation plans. If you say something isn't a charity, but a business, then you have no right to expect it to continue to act as if it is one, if that disadvantages its business customers.

Even that being the case, why throw away someone, and not the others? Why not give a chance to renegotiate and explain terms? Why not give the opportunity to have that discussion, which was never given in first place, and with the decision communicated via phone call and no openness for a face to face meeting, leaving people desperate and upset about how the situation was handled?

 

It's also because even if you want to try and argue the opposite, the argument is frail in the sense that none of the treatment that is being delivered to the Tigersharks is also being delivered to the other teams/clubs using the facilities. And also, if you want to be seen as a trustworthy, reliable institution, you would have a dialogue and communication channel open, to discuss and find solutions for these issues way ahead of just handing them a notice saying that Tigersharks is no more with no possibility for recourse. 

 

[DadOf4]

Irrespective of contractual basis, this is appalling behaviour from a school that claims to be a good community citizen.
Showing their true colours ?

[tariqj]

Really hoping that there is a solution that can allow Tiger Sharks to continue at Alleyns.  TS have created a vibrant and supportive swimming community which cannot in my view (having been a member for more than a decade) be replicated easily or quickly.  The balance and inclusivity of teaching adults and kids of all levels from beginner to expert is such a unique product which Krys and the team have developed over nearly 30 years.  TS has made a meaningful difference my family and so many others.  

[slimsurf1]

Can I add my voice here 

- Tigersharks is a much loved and well supported thriving club of 27 years it’s no wonder it’s generating such strong feelings.
- like many others my children swim with the  club and their is no other club that I’m aware of like it. It’s unique in that beginners to advanced swimmers all have a place there. And it’s simple the only place that you don’t just have to sit for an hour watching your children swim but can swim yourself too. 
 

I am not sure what bearing vat and charitable status have on the schools decision making but in my view this absolutely makes for bad press for Alleyns.
This is not behaviour I would think represents the values the of school as expressed to parents of current or future alumni. 
 

Edited July 2 by slimsurf1

[scarlettbanks]

Yes, for me this isn't an argument about contractual agreements (I would guess that Alleyn's will be within their contractual rights to do this, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this). It's more an argument about courtesy, ethics, and commitment to community. Krys and his colleagues have built up TigerSharks over decades (and paid Alleyn's for use of the pool over these decades), and have worked so hard to build an amazing community-based club. It just seems wrong to call him up, 2 weeks before the end of term, and to say "that's it" with no explanation or offer of alternative ideas/workarounds. To make things worse, Alleyn's have contacted all of those who attend TigerSharks, asking us to fill out a survey on a new proposed swimming club (to be run by Alleyn's) which sounds much like TigerSharks but without Krys and his staff - it basically feels like Alleyn's are stealing TigerSharks' mailing list/business, and are now looking to run it themselves. Again, this might be legally ok, but it feels wrong. And they're only doing this to Krys, not to the other swimming clubs.  To those who are saying "only Alleyn's and Krys know what has really happened" - the members of TigerSharks have been asking Krys about this, and he really hasn't been given any further warning or information - Krys is as honest as they come, so I think Alleyn's haven't communicated well with him. That said, I have heard that the school has agreed with meet with Krys and others - so credit to them for this - I really hope they can find some solution that allows Krys to keep his students and his livelihood. I've heard that Alleyn's have done good things for the community in the past - maybe they just made a mistake with this one (e.g. maybe the person in charge of the pool did all this without consulting Alleyn's management) and maybe they will now put things right. 

[DadOf4]

Thanks for sharing that info @scarlettbanks.  You've hit the nail on the head with your opnion.

Fingers crossed that Alleyns sees some common sense and decency here

[Abba]

Important update - I am pleased to say that a few club members (myself included) and Krys (the Tigersharks coach) met with Alleyns to discuss reasonable next steps. The School apologised for the way Tigersharks had been treated and we are now in a dialogue to try and save the Club. This is still very much a "watch this space" but there is a glimmer of optimism for the Club. Thanks again for all your support. 

[DadOf4]

Thanks for your efforts @Abba but what does "In a dialogue" mean ?  Does that mean that Tgiersharks can conitune or are  Alleyns are now trying to explain away how theyve tried to srew-over the swimming club ?

I'll beleive it when i see it, 

"a leopord doenst change its spots"

 

[Abba]

Let's give Alleyns the benefit of the doubt. We have had an engaged conversation with them yesterday, about about both short-term solutions and longer term options. They have already agreed to let the Club continue to swim at the school until the end of the year. They have apologised for the way they communicated with Tigersharks and have made commitments in writing about helping find a solution that suits both them and Tigersharks. I will continue to post updates as we hopefully continue to make progress. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Good to see Alleyns making more reasonable noises. Hopefully they can follow through with reasonable actions. 🤞🏻 

[scarlettbanks]

Thanks for this update. It sounds like Alleyns maybe just did make a mistake (which can happen to any business), and it sounds like they are now putting things right. Great to hear that Tigersharks will continue until the end of the year, and it sounds like beyond too 

[Tigersharks]

No indication TS will continue past the end of the year