Save TigerSharks Swim Club at Alleyns

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

3 hours ago, vladi said:

 upcoming liability to VAT. To qualify for charity status, Alleyns was obliged to provide a wide variety of support to the wider community. 

You are confusing two things (VAT free status of private education, which if Labour is elected would go at some point after 2025, and charitable status, which would stay) and there is not the slightest evidence that either of them is relevant to Alleyns wanting to exclude Tigersharks swimming club.

[vladi]

There is no direct link between charitable status and VAT Free status however when VAT on fees come in, Alleyns will be registerd for vAT and will collect the tax on fees. Being registered for VAT , they will have to charge VAT on any other chargeable services they provide, such as for Tigersharks. The VAT on fees will be offset to a very small extent by reclaiming VAT on the costs of services and goods they incur. This will be miniscule as the bulk of their costs will be staff salaries.

To offset the effects of VAT on fees, Alleyns will probably have to cut back on costs and this is where they may have to cut back on the charitable aspects of what they are involved with in the community. In some cases they may be faced with charging fees in the future for services and support which are currently free.

[claresy]

My daughters both learned to swim at Tiger Sharks which would have been fairly impossible otherwise as I was a single parent. I also had some training myself there for a swimming holiday and learned how to do the front crawl properly! I hope it's saved.

[SE22_2020er]

This is such a pity as Krys and Tigersharks have clearly been a Dulwich institution for a long time which has given a lot of pleasure to many people both children and grown ups that I know.

I do wonder why Allen's would be doing this as it's not looking like great publicity from them.  My twopence worth is that I bet that all of the departments have been told to come up with ways to save or make money to counteract the cost of VAT.   If it's a choice between this and telling a bursary kid that they can no longer go to the school then my guess is that they're going to prioritise the bursary kid.   But that's just speculation and it would be interesting to hear Alleyn's side of the story.

[jazzer]

Have local press ben made aware, will make a great story for London tonight, ITV, BBC and London Live, just a thought, perhaps they can ask Alleyns why the decision was made with virtually zero discussion or consultation? 

[cwjlawrence]

@jazzer - maybe talking with the school to get their perspective could get a better outcome for the club?

Edited June 25, 2024 by cwjlawrence

[jazzer]

yep, agree with that suggestion. 

[VPaiva]

9 hours ago, SE22_2020er said:

This is such a pity as Krys and Tigersharks have clearly been a Dulwich institution for a long time which has given a lot of pleasure to many people both children and grown ups that I know.

I do wonder why Allen's would be doing this as it's not looking like great publicity from them.  My twopence worth is that I bet that all of the departments have been told to come up with ways to save or make money to counteract the cost of VAT.   If it's a choice between this and telling a bursary kid that they can no longer go to the school then my guess is that they're going to prioritise the bursary kid.   But that's just speculation and it would be interesting to hear Alleyn's side of the story.

That train of thought does not stick - why the Tigersharks only? Why Krys? Why not any of the other clubs? They could also be making savings/profit from exploiting the slots for the other clubs... 

If we speculate that they did it for financial reasons, then they discriminated against the Tiger sharks, and not any other club - and we could even speculate that they did this because they thought Krys is off a certain age (ageism), and he would just take it and move on with his life and not make any noise about it.

How do you think this comes out across? You let someone else dedicate their lives to build something from the ground up - create the routines, the club, the connection and familiarity to the neighboring families and the swimming pool at the school, and then when it suits Alleyn's or when they fancy, they just get rid of the club and take over their business model? This is unacceptable and appalling behavior for an institution that wants to be seen as having high moral standards. This is not how respectable people and trustworthy institutions  deal with each other. This is just a greedy and inconsiderate behavior from Alleyn's school management - is this really what they want their pupils to learn???

Even speculating further, shouldn't this serve as a forewarning for any other clubs using their facilities? That their business model can be taken away at really short notice, and screw the users and all the swimmers? This really is a messed up situation from Alleyn's school... 

7 hours ago, cwjlawrence said:

@jazzer - maybe talking with the school to get their perspective could get a better outcome for the club?

Sadly, that's not what you get from reading the original post.

Alleyn's seems to have served a 2 weeks notice only for the club to terminate their business at the swimming pool at Alleyn's, and this seems to have been done as an accomplished fact, with no space for recourse or renegotiation. It was a blatant grab of Tigersharks business model / "intellectual property", as none of the other clubs using the same facilities seem to have suffered the same fate, allegedly. This is highly discriminatory towards Tiger sharks and their users, and by extension Krys too... 

[jazzer]

VPaiva, you've mis quoted me, if you bother checking,  you'll actually find the quote was made by cwjlawrence

Suggest you retract your comment. 

 

[buntytrumpet]

My young family and I have been able to swim together for years because of this amazing club. Absolutely gutted to hear that the decision was made with no consultation or transparency. I hope they are decent enough to reconsider. 

[decca]

We’ve been a member off and on for the last 20 years. I actually learnt to swim there as did my children. Tiger Sharks has been a constant during this time. Something I/we have valued. Although I’m sure legally entitled to do so, strikes me as an extremely shabby way to behave and has effectively wiped out Krys/Margarett’s business which they have built up over many, many years. I dropped Alleyns an email via their website urging them to review. I suggest others do the same. While on their website however, I came across a section on the own values which they hold themselves up to. I haven’t yet had a reply but seems to be a mismatch in terms of the values they promote externally and how they appear to have acted. https://www.alleyns.org.uk/all-about-alleyn-s/our-values https://www.alleyns.org.uk/all-about-alleyn-s/our-values

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 25/06/2024 at 09:43, vladi said:

There is no direct link between charitable status and VAT Free status however when VAT on fees come in, Alleyns will be registerd for vAT and will collect the tax on fees. Being registered for VAT , they will have to charge VAT on any other chargeable services

As you say, charitable status is unrelated. Alleyns has been VAT registered for years.  You're speculating out of thin air.

Edited June 26, 2024 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[DadOf4]

Reading through this makes me so angry with Alleyns.  I'm not going to get into the debate about private schools generally or about their charitable status being a good or a bad thing but here’s my thoughts:

1.IMO there’s an unwritten understanding between places like Alleyns and their local communities. We tolerate the masses of 4x4's and  gridlock on our local streets every day, they "give" a little bit back to the local community. This decision seems to be completely counter to that understanding

 

2. Alleyns seem to be riding roughshod over a local institution that is clearly dear to many people. I'm not sure why they’d be doing this, maybe they have reasons around doing things differently, but this feels like Margerat Thatcher and coal mines - lets "make progress" and screw the communities in the meantime

 

3. 2 weeks notice after 27 years ? WTAF ? Even if this wasn’t a local community club and assuming Tiger sharks employee people, I'd guess they’re all going to be out of a job.....with 2 weeks notice. I think even the greediest of corporations would think they’d  have a PR disaster with that - let alone a school that claims to be a good community citizen. P&O ferries springs to mind  

 

[vladi]

@DadOf4

You certainly feel very strongly about this but the reality is that none of us, outside Krys/Margaret and Alleyns ,are party to the facts. Until we know the facts then it may be inappropriate to heap opprobrium on Alleyns.

Have you talked to Krys/Margaret? 
Are you acquainted with the contractual details of the  business arrangement between them and Alleyns?

If there has been a breach of contract then this can best be resolved by legal process.

As none of us here are party to the contract details, and recent discussions ,then it unfair to castigate Alleyns unfairly.

[toes]

So glad I saw this post and others feel the same way. Tigersharks is so unique and such a shock that this fantastic community swimming club looks like it could be stopped with such short notice after so many years. To have a club that is so inclusive, keeps kids of all levels being able to swim through their teens and some then learning to teach is amazing. And all this while adults can swim at the same time. Krys is an incredible coach and it is outrageous that he can be treated in this way. Save Tigersharks!!!

[bonaome]

Does anyone know …

- is it just Tigersharks or are St James’s, Brockwell and SLSC, and Dulwich Dolphins, and Dc polo etc also being told to leave?

- is it all the tigersharks sessions or specific ones?

I’m no fan of Alleyn’s. But they do seem to be assumed guilty here, without all the facts available. 

[slimsurf1]

Hi 

Can I just add my voice here - I have been a swimmer with tiger sharks off and on for 20 years - my daughters have learnt to swim there. It's a unique club where you can swim in parallel with your children. they cater for beginner to advanced. Its friendly and inclusive and just a fantastic community club.

its weathered the storms of the Alleyn's pool refurbishment and COVID and had to re-grow as a club each time and has flourished just because of its unique offer. I cannot think of another place where I can train as I did tonight at the same time as my daughter swims and improves.

Please can we band together to try and to save this long running south London club that has been run by two wonderful people for so long - I can't even think about the lost opportunities for young coaches as you often see swimmers graduate to teaching the younger ones over time.

BTW Alleyn's you might want to think how this looks to this community many of whom at least know current or potential alumni

Anyway rant over please lets save this club 

[VPaiva]

On 25/06/2024 at 23:07, jazzer said:

VPaiva, you've mis quoted me, if you bother checking,  you'll actually find the quote was made by cwjlawrence

Suggest you retract your comment. 

 

It's all right, I think I was replying to cwjlawrence, so I quoted him 

[Sue]

Has anyone actually asked Alleyn's the reasons for their actions?

Or asked Krys what reasons he has been given?

Edited June 28, 2024 by Sue

[Penguin68]

Caveat:- I have no knowledge, let alone inside knowledge, about the workings of Alleyn’s or of TigerSharks.

However I can hypothesise perfectly plausible reasons why this may have occurred, and indeed reasons which might make those who currently deplore the situation, re-think. And reasons, to do with both Data Protection and Commercial Confidentiality, why Alleyn’s, or indeed TigerSharks might prefer, or be required, not to openly discuss issues.

Sometimes things happen which we might, if we weren’t ‘in the know’ be upset about but which, did we know, we could accept.

I have no idea whether any of my hypothetical reasons are even close to any truth, but (and I implore people not to voice speculations themselves) they could be – which might place Alleyn’s in a position where any decision they might have made might be justifiable.

On the face of it, it is a great shame that something which has so many champions (and happy supporters) has ended. Maybe something similar might replace it.

But, as I have said above, you might not like Alleyn’s but the people who run it have not proved themselves fools, even if issues to do with coaches, and traffic, and the way they interact with neighbours, and the privilege of public schools may upset you.

[VPaiva]

14 hours ago, Sue said:

Has anyone actually asked Alleyn's the reasons for their actions?

Or asked Krys what reasons he has been given?

Krys hasn't been given a reason when he received a phone call on the issue (yes, this was all handled initially over the phone). He was just informed that he wouldn't be allowed to use the space for next school term from September as per usual. This with 2 weeks to go for end of current term. When he pressed for reasons, none was given, and when he asked for a meeting, none was offered. The decision was presented as final, and without possibility for recourse or renegotiation of terms. 

This is all after 27y of using the place, and without any consideration as to what he might be able to do, or not, the day after, and of course, to all the swimmers of Tiger shark. 

It is also understood that Krys, and the Tiger sharks, are the only ones suffering this fate. From what is transpiring, none of the other clubs that have access to the facilities are suffering the same fate. They are still expected to operate come the beginning of the new school term. This is a highly discriminatory move towards Krys and the Tiger shark swimmers. 

From what is transpiring, Alleyn's may be intent on expanding their own swimming club offer, but give me a break, if they are not doing this to the other clubs who use the facilities, then this is also just an opportunistic and and greedy move on Alleyn's side. I bet they wouldn't be too happy if all the benefits they accrued over the years out of their "supposed" charitable action would also be rolled back as they also stopped being "charitable"....

 

[vladi]

In all probability a proper legal contract is/was in operation regarding usage of the facilities. This would have clearly established the arrangements for termination  by either party, Such a contract would not normally stipulate that a reason be given for termination by either party.

Similarly, the period of notice and the method of serving that notice will have been clearly stated.

There has been no mention that Alleyns has breached the terms of the contract. In the unlikely event of the contract being published, then we can all speculate as much as we want but in the end a contract is a contract

Termination is certainly a blow to Krys and we all sympathise. It also creates a degree of uncertainty for members of the swimming club but  , at this stage, none of us know what  the future will bring. Let's see what the future brings.
 

[Broca_Flat]

Sorry to be pedantic, but is it really 2 weeks notice? "He was just informed that he wouldn't be allowed to use the space for next school term from September as per usual. This with 2 weeks to go for end of current term." If the next term is in September, and the current term ends first week of July, doesn't he technically have about 8 weeks to find a new pool. Hoping that he can find a place at JAGS or DC. 

[Tigersharks]

You try and find pool space in London!

[VPaiva]

On 29/06/2024 at 11:23, Broca_Flat said:

Sorry to be pedantic, but is it really 2 weeks notice? "He was just informed that he wouldn't be allowed to use the space for next school term from September as per usual. This with 2 weeks to go for end of current term." If the next term is in September, and the current term ends first week of July, doesn't he technically have about 8 weeks to find a new pool. Hoping that he can find a place at JAGS or DC. 

Actually, it is not just being pedantic, it is also being a little disingenuous - people and companies make plans for their lives and their day to day operations way ahead of time. There are expectations and there is also the responsibility from when you are providing a service that you are reliable and dependable - people count on that. And a business that is not reliable will not survive long term. 

If you really believe that "8 weeks" is good enough to find a pool in the area (or expect all the swimmers to also be able to accommodate such), I really don't know what to say, but I am amazed as to what people with no knowledge and personal experience of going through the issue can say with "a straight face" and think they know what they are talking about... 

And again, this is *only* affecting one club/coach. Do you even ask yourself why that is? Do you support such a move? Or, asking from a different point of view, would you like to be in the receiving end of that situation, whilst seeing that other clubs using the facilities were not facing the same treatment??? 

 

Alleyn's is clearly on the wrong with this one...