arrest in east dulwich this morning

[purplebreeze]

Does anyone know what was happening outside the Lord Palmerson pub this morning with the guy that was in cuffs with uncountable police? - uniformed and plain clothes - seemed to be far to many police for just one person!...just read of the 480 arrests by 7500 police officers on bbc news and wondering if this is connected...understand we need to arrest people but it was a bit over the top with the amount of police ...

[ratty]

Took 25 coppers to arrest one woman at my work 3 weeks ago. Admittedly she had just bitten the face off one of them, but still, 25?????

[mik322]

I witnessed the arrest on my way to work. Did seem a very OTT for the arrest of one guy. The plain clothes officer seemed to have things under control, maybe a van to take him away would have sufficed. Not sure what the other 3 or 4 police vehicles and officers were doing.

I'm sure I've seen the guy who was arrested begging for money and very inebriated in the area recently.

[purplebreeze]

Hey Ratty that's awful - do you work locally? and that seems a lot also and Mik322 the plain clothes guy did seem to have all under control and it was OTT ... I haven't seen him before so maybe he is new to the area if you have seen him recently... be nice to see the police in those numbers plodding the streets again in pairs and maybe less crime might happen if they were visual and not on mass ...

[UncleBen]

Loads always turn up if they're on quiet shift, or at start of shift. Won't see them for dust if at end of shift!

Or maybe the 176, 40 and 185 all came together and they bussed in from camberwell?

[JimH]

An unarmed kid broke into my house and I caught him and 17 police officers turned up to take him away! Thank God i never offered them teas or coffees!

[savvygirl]

A few years ago when the traffic lights were out at Dulwich Library a car hit the rear of another smashing its rear light, glass everywhere. No-one was hurt as it was really just a prang. Five blue top cars turned up with their sirens screaming and there must have been a dozen coppers there. One was taking notes while the other swept up the glass. I just couldn't believe it but it explains why police cars are always screaming about all over the place with their sirens blaring. I should think the incident is then radioed to the nearest car in the area and in this case maybe five of them were close by. Seems nothing has changed!

[Jah Lush]

The guy who was arrested lives locally and is a schizophrenic. Unfortunately, he often forgets to take his pills and gets himself into trouble.

[El Pibe]

Blimey ratty!! Bath salts?

[purplebreeze]

Aww that is such a shame poor guy ... hope he is ok ... he was just standing staring it looked like it was overwhelming I was going to stop and question why it took so many police but was late for an important meeting due to all the roads beieng dug up at the moment. I ran a housing project a few years back and had a lad who was schizophrenic and couldnt get any help from the police to section him they just kept arresting him and eventually I got a great psychiatrist in the court to assess him and he finally got help. Hope that guy gets the help he needs...

[Jah Lush]

Professional help is something he definitely needs. Poor bugger.

[ratty]

Interesting that it is a case of poor mental health as that is what happened at my work too.

In Tower Hamlets btw

[purplebreeze]

Hey Ratty

I moved from TH to here - and once met some guy over there who was clearly unwell mentally he was crying and begging for help. I called an ambulance and they arrived with the police and he refused to go to hospital and because he hadnt hurt anyone they said fine and left him in the street. I complained to the emergency services and they said there is nothing we can do until he hurts someone! Great no help for people ill and then when they hurt someone they get arrested. Good system...

[Penguin68]

I complained to the emergency services and they said there is nothing we can do until he hurts someone

You assume a benevolent society - I would be very worried if the mentally ill could be banged-up or sectioned at the say-so of coppers or passers by - of course sometimes it goes terribly wrong - but when someone is simply distressed, refuses help and isn't breaking the law then (I am very glad to say) there is nothing that anyone can be forced to do.

Of course sometimes, if people have time, they may be able to help by listening - but a society when the well-meaning can interfere against the will of the interered with is quite a dangerous society.

Individual freedom to be miserable without enforced hospitalisation is, broadly a good thing. Facilities shouod be available to help those who have decided they need it, but not to force 'help' on those who clearly don't want it. As I understand it, he could have got medical help if he had not refused that offered. The situation changes when an individual becomes a clear and immediate threat to themselves or others, but the process of 'sectioning' necessarily is complex and requires qualified medical (psychiatric) intervention.

[susiq]

time and again family and friends have contacted Maudsley hospital and police asking for help for this young man but same reply, "we cant do anything until he hurts himself or someone else, we asked him if he was ok and he said yes!, we cant make him take his tablets" etc, etc, the police are also unable to do anything as he is under the "care" of Maudsley, its a real shame. but as he has now hurt someone (sadly) maybe he will receive some help this time - maybe.

[Dopamine1979]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I complained to the emergency services and they

> said there is nothing we can do until he hurts

> someone

>

> You assume a benevolent society - I would be very

> worried if the mentally ill could be banged-up or

> sectioned at the say-so of coppers or passers by -

> of course sometimes it goes terribly wrong - but

> when someone is simply distressed, refuses help

> and isn't breaking the law then (I am very glad to

> say) there is nothing that anyone can be forced to

> do.

>

> Of course sometimes, if people have time, they may

> be able to help by listening - but a society when

> the well-meaning can interfere against the will of

> the interered with is quite a dangerous society.

>

> Individual freedom to be miserable without

> enforced hospitalisation is, broadly a good thing.

> Facilities shouod be available to help those who

> have decided they need it, but not to force 'help'

> on those who clearly don't want it. As I

> understand it, he could have got medical help if

> he had not refused that offered. The situation

> changes when an individual becomes a clear and

> immediate threat to themselves or others, but the

> process of 'sectioning' necessarily is complex and

> requires qualified medical (psychiatric)

> intervention.

This.

Well said.

[buddug]

Purplebreeze said: 'he was crying and begging for help.'

But Penguin68 said: 'Facilities should be available to help those who have decided they need it, but not to force 'help' on those who clearly don't want it.'

He was crying and begging for help penguin. Which part of crying and begging for help do you not understand?

[Penguin68]

What part of (see emphasis) I called an ambulance and they arrived with the police and he refused to go to hospital didn't you understand. Whatever help he wanted, it apparently wasn't medical.

[buddug]

Hospital is not the only help that can be given. But he was still crying and begging for help. There should have been another way.

[Penguin68]

OK - just pure speculation here, to make a point - but, what if he had been crying for help because he wanted another drink, or another fix, or someone to give him a job, or a home, or his wife back? There are so many reasons to cry for help - that's why I suggested that if someone who had had the time could listen to him it might help. But until you know the cause, you have no way of knowing the cure, and in some instances a cure isn't in anyone's gift. The proximate and immediate help you (society) can give someone in acute clinical depression (assuming that's what was the matter) is medical - once that's refused...

[Sue]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> OK - just pure speculation here, to make a point -

> but, what if he had been crying for help because

> he wanted another drink, or another fix, or

> someone to give him a job, or a home, or his wife

> back? There are so many reasons to cry for help -

> that's why I suggested that if someone who had had

> the time could listen to him it might help. But

> until you know the cause, you have no way of

> knowing the cure, and in some instances a cure

> isn't in anyone's gift. The proximate and

> immediate help you (society) can give someone in

> acute clinical depression (assuming that's what

> was the matter) is medical - once that's

> refused...

xxxxxxx

According to a post above the man is schizophrenic, not depressed.

They're completely different illnesses.

And to "speculate" that he was "crying for help" because he "wanted another drink, or another fix" is just rude.

ETA: To the best of my knowledge, which admittedly is somewhat out of date, schizophrenia is not helped by "listening". It is helped by medication. If the person refuses medication then there is little anybody can do, unless he were to be sectioned.

[purplebreeze]

Some very good points from all that have posted ... I should have quantified that the man in TH who was crying for help told me he couldn't remember who he was or where he lived and didn't know where he was. He said he was under the hospital (but couldn't remember which one) for mental health problems (well his words were 'because I am a nutter') ... he told me he had not taken his medication because it made him feel ill and could remember what it was as the hospital had recently changed it and it was at his place (which he couldn't remember where) and that he had just been walking to get away from 'what was going on in his head' (his words) ... I left him in a cafe and got him some food when he said that he was sorry he was having one of his 'episodes' and it was now over and he would be ok and that he would go to Whitechapel hospital (which I offered to take him or get him a cab - which he refused. I and he had told this all to the ambulance and the police - so for me I was upset that they couldn't do anything and wouldt even check his name against any missing people descritions. Hope it worked out for him in the end. I am reluctant to talk with people who I can see clearly have mental health problems now after that and other similar experiences...which I feel relly bad about.

[Countrlass22]

purplebreeze im having faith back to see how you went extra miles to try get him help he so needed i hope police learn from you to do as asked if happens again......its not easy by far to suffer mental health issues......you are star for trying your best reminds me what being care focused in community is all about.

[susiq]

the "boy" in question is actually in his forties with a loving family and large group of friends who have tried repeatedly over the years to help him, unfortunately, when he suffers a "meltdown" usually because he does not take his medication and drinks heavily, he becomes violent and paranoid, the police can only arrest him if he is a danger to himself or others and then they can only refer him to medical care, they themselves can only hold him for a certain amount of time, giving him medication until he improves, he is then (like so many others) let back into the community and the whole cycle starts again. the police may have looked heavy handed but the person is known to carry weapons and is known to be dangerous, when well he is a lovely person but sadly he suffers from a condition that so far remains difficult to control.