Would the last 35-43 year old to leave East Dulwich.....

[MrBen]

Yet another local pal of mine has announced he?s leaving London for the bright lights of Kent/Wiltshire/Surrey. Like the rest, he?d stay if he could afford a house but he can?t. This migration has always happened (for more space, fresh air, better schools etc) but based on those East Dulwich 30 to early 40 somethings I know, it has become an epidemic in 2013.

Looking around I see this:

- Most in SE22 in the 35-42 bracket with young kids and renting or in their own flat and looking for space are choosing to rent/buy a house in the sticks rather than supposedly less pricey suburbs like Forest Hill or Catford.

- An increased exodus of middle classes from city neighborhoods leaving behind either the poor or the rich /older couples.

- A huge gap moving from a flat to a house that is near impossible to bridge on a without a large wage increase/inheritance/financial luck.

That leaves behind older demographic (45 +) who got on the housing ladder and climbed it, 20 something professional renters, the single, the old school elderly and those on benefits. And those who have always lived locally who?ll continue to call this place home regardless. Then there's the current crop of incomers. Most houses round here are currently going to sealed bids and selling for ?750k+ to 32 year old couples from Clapham who?ve just sold flats. They?re filling the middle gap but not without the usual lasting change on the area (good/bad/discuss/etc)

It is all deeply depressing. If all that binds me to London is work going forward, I cant see me hanging around either. Sorry...just lamenting passing times...

[*Bob*]

Nobody likes to see friends go (and we've lost a few ourselves to places further away than surrey) but I don't quite see the logic of leaving because they have if YOU don't have to.. Unless you want to live next door to each other like Ant and Dec or something weird.

If work and friends is the only reason you're living in London, you're probably in the wrong town anyway..?

London is full of potential new pals.. And there's a darned sight more chance you'll find more people you really get on with than in Smalltown, Kent. So make some new friends.. Bosh. And make sure some of them are gay.. Because they are unlikely to be leaving anytime soon.

[Otta]

I've felt down at times in recent months because I have very few local friends left. Only a few years ago we were a big circle of fun loving social animals. Then we bloody grew up, and I admit I'm finding the transition harder to come to terms with than some.

[StraferJack]

I don't think mrben is simply bemoaning his own lot in this sorry scenario *bob*

What you say about province is depressingly true for most part, but given numbers heading that way, even that may change

But I think his main point (or subtext at least) is that something is a bit wrong with the picture and market economics isn't the only solution. But there is already a thread along similar lines in the drawing room to no great effect.

Mrben is a cool, affable dude. He will make new friends aplenty. I wouldn't worry about him

[Annette Curtain]

I once lived in Worthing, so maybe i'm biased

But i'm not leaving NO FRIGGIN WAY

I don't care if there's no lawn-mower-sharpen-your-shears-shop on the parade in Goring type place here

I will survive

[StraferJack]

I'm not even in mrben's quoted age bracket. So I'm doubly hacked off

[indiepanda]

Definitely an element of truth in what Mr Ben says - one of my best friends who lives locally is trying to juggle wanting a bigger house / garden for their 3 kids versus wanting to stay in East Dulwich - the only reason they'd have for leaving is that it's hard to make the financials stack up here.

I have no plans to move on, but then I am single with no intention of ever having children so I have enough space for my needs.

I used to live outside of London and I was bored to tears having so few single people to hang out with, and such a dire social life I was in no danger of meeting a man either. I'll be sad if some of my friends move on, but enough to leave. No... not for the forseeable future. I like being near the art galleries, museums, theatres etc and I have other friends who don't have families and won't be moving on either. Living here I am frequently juggling plans in my diary, out of town I was far too familiar with the plot of Casualty as I hardly ever went out on Saturday evenings.

The one good thing about having lived outside of London was that I had got on the housing ladder in my 20s so I had the profit from my first two homes to put into my place in ED.

It has surprised me how much houses seem to have gone up round here in the last two and a half years since I bought mine. Seen a few on my row go up for sale recently at prices that look quite high compared to what I paid (hard to compare exactly as all have different extensions), and they've all sold within about 2 months. Not sure I'd have been able to get a mortgage on my place now!

[Otta]

Most of my friends who have left are not originally from London. They don't have roots and family here.

I won't lie, we are really struggling financially right now living here, and that's with a relatively low rent (although ?1100 will never be cheap in my book), but both me and my wife are from here and our kid's grandparents are here, and there is a part of both of us that just doesn't want to be pushed out because of money.

Money fucking sucks!

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

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> I'm not even in mrben's quoted age bracket. So I'm

> doubly hacked off

Neither am I for 5 days.

[StraferJack]

Git

[Jeremy]

Everything you say is true MrBen, but it's all been happening for years and years.

People moving into the suburbs once they have families... that's what my parents did in the 70s.

People moving into ED from other areas and changing the area... that's already been happening since the turn of the century. Most of us on here have already played our part in that.

[*Bob*]

Have we been here long enough to start dissing the new wave of incomers now?

Excellent.

[StraferJack]

What is happening now isn't the same as before Jeremy. That's his point

People moving on and moving in and out is as old as the city

What is different is the volume if people in professional jobs moving not because they are having families or want out, but because they have.

Previously the jump from flat to house was doable. No more.

Rent was an affordable second option. No more

I'm moving. But I don't want to

[numbers]

Penge isn't so bad.

[Pugwash]

We seem to be the opposite - I am knocking on retirement age, (hubby already retired on health grounds) we have a large 4 bed house which will be too expensive to maintain on a pension. I would like to downsize in ED, but would still want a 3 bed place as our grandchildren stay over regularly. Both of us have arthritis which is likely in years to come prevent us from walking etc. Ideally a bungalow - which is impossible in ED. Or a house with stairs wide enough to take a stair lift, or space to add an extension including a shower room/wc so that if we are wheelchair bound we do not have to go in a home. Also would want a garden of sorts. The 3 bed properties advertised for ED are the same amount we would get for our 4 bed and have much less space. neither of us want to leave this area as have good GPs and hospital, and belong to various community organisations in ED so are rarely lonely. Both of us have disabilities so it is harder for us to integrate. We have kids/grandkids in Harlow, Orpington and Worthing. If one of us dies. we have a good ED support network for the remaining spouse. From what we have observed from friends etc moving away fro ED and other places, that it takes about 2 years to get accepted in a new community and many areas longer as neighbours keep themselves to themselves etc

[muffins78]

I'm the same, everyone I know who lived around here, has now moved on. I'm the last one standing so to speak, and it is hard, and where I ponder about selling up and leaving London, its not feasible either.

How things were 5 years ago, for instance, are hugely different for me now. Its not a "woe me" post, but the truth as I know it at the moment.

[Jeremy]

The jump in price from a flat to a house has gone up, for sure. Whereas before houses were proportionately cheaper (hence all those developers splitting up houses into flats), now it's the other way round.

But people being priced out of areas once you need space for a family... that's always happened as far as I can tell.

[MrBen]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What is happening now isn't the same as before

> Jeremy. That's his point

>

> People moving on and moving in and out is as old

> as the city

>

> What is different is the volume if people in

> professional jobs moving not because they are

> having families or want out, but because they

> have.

>

> Previously the jump from flat to house was doable.

> No more.

>

> Rent was an affordable second option. No more

>

> I'm moving. But I don't want to

This exactly. The difference now is that there is no choice. You can have two decent professional type salaries (say 90K combined), live in your own flat/rent and still not be able to buy a basic house in this hum drum area of south London. That gives you no choice but to move out and if you're going to move out, you might as well move out out (credit: Micky Flanagan) and do it properly. And that's what close to 3/4 of couples/friends I know in SE22 are doing. A few are doing so for the age old reasons. But the other lot like it round here and don't want to go.

Friends, work and family are three great reasons to be anywhere. I'm not living in London for the theatre or the odd trip to the Natural History museum.

My OP wasn't clear. Is this another property thread saying what's happening or a rather melancholy reflection on growing up? Now that Otta's been honest and called it, probably both.....

[*Bob*]

I agree London would probably be pointless without at least two sides of the work/family/friends triangle in place.

But I feel anyone who has boiled all the other positives of 'London Life' down to plain old facilities ought to question why they're here! Apply to any other comparable city: "I'm not living in New York for the shopping and the odd trip to MOMA". Like, helloo? You're living in NEW YORK, baby!

[Mick Mac]

I'm finding most people we know are staying rather than moving. There were a few moved a couple of years ago but not recently, the people we know are pretty loyal to ED.

I think with the secondary school decision approaching for many there may be another critical point to get through next year.

Having said that, our friends are very near the top end of MrBen's age bracket.

Also, I think now that Mr Ben has moved to the other side of LL, its only fair that his ED pals are no longer speaking to him. But I have friends just about to make the same upmarket move to his road - I'll give him an introduction. :)

[MrBen]

> Also, I think now that Mr Ben has moved to the

> other side of LL, its only fair that his ED pals

> are no longer speaking to him. But I have friends

> just about to make the same upmarket move to his

> road - I'll give him an introduction. :)

Upmarket? A 3 bed terrace in South London? Really??! :-)

From what I can tell I'm the youngest guy on our street by about 10 years. People wash their cars, have rules for putting bins out and wear golf jumpers. It's a bit stuffy. Kids play viloins. WELCOME.

[MrBen]

Mick, I'm guessing your pals all got on the SE22 ladder back when a houses were affordable for average 30-somethings. They're not now.

[LondonMix]

I think all of what has been said is true- the middle is getting squeezed out of London and its becoming a city increasingly for the poor and the relatively rich. Part of the jump in the gap between flats and houses (and the trend to reconvert flats to houses) has to do with a broader trend for families to stay in London rather than leave as they used to. That is in part why the school places shortage is more acute in London than elsewhere. Where before everyone moved to the sticks, with improved schools and safety, more young families want to stay in London and enjoy city life.

However, I think it?s easy to overestimate the impact of this living in ED. ED has increased in value faster than most parts of London. If you lived in Eltham, you wouldn't be experiencing this. The jump in ED is harder because families love the area so houses are at a premium and because the area's amenities have improved pushing up prices very quickly over the last couple of years.

I?m also surprised lots of people seem to be choosing Beckenham over Forrest Hill etc when they are priced out of ED.

[Mick Mac]

MrBen Wrote:

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>

> From what I can tell I'm the youngest guy on our

> street by about 10 years.

Not any more (well not any more, "subject to contract") :)

[Otta]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> If you

> lived in Eltham, you wouldn't be experiencing

> this.

No, but you'd definitely want to mive! ;-)