Urgent request for free legal advise for bulge classes

[helenholden]

I am a parent of kilmorie Primary school that received a letter in the middle of last week(16th July)revealing the schools plans for an additional intake of 30 children taking the reception class up to 120 children. As a parent i am deeply worried, concerned and upset about how the school has informed us (only this letter no plans for a meeting) and how ultimately my child is now signed up to this place and I have no say in this matter..can anyone please advise me as to what to do about this - is this actually legal? as when i had agreed to the place it was already an intake of 90, i did not sign up to an additional 30. If anyone can help me try and find a way of challenging this decision that effects the well being of a whole school I would really appreciate your time/comments. Many thanks in advance.

[tomskip]

Most if not all primary schools in SE22 have had a bulge class in the past few years. The population is booming and more school places are urgently needed. Have you seen the threads in the Family Room where many parents are extremely worried because their children still do not have a reception place at all?

I have not heard of other schools consulting with parents ... I am not even sure we received a letter at all when our school took a bulge class. What is it that concerns you?

Goodrich School was a 3 form entry which became 4 form entry for one year and as far as I am aware everything has been fine for that bulge class and the year as a whole.

[helenholden]

Hi Tom - thank you for your response..i guess if you know it's happening in advance you can make a decision - I have my first child at kilmorie who joined last sept when they went up to a three form entry so for my second i excepted this as protocall as we were told by kilmorie they will increase by a three form year on year but only two days ago they said it will be four form and i don't think a letter to tell us of this is right - i think a meeting to share their knowledge on how this will not impact on the quality of the learning environment for our children.

I know only too well of the problems this borough has with too many homes being built and not enough resources. Further more i have personal experience as i was part of a group of parents trying to set up a free school - to which was another government initiative that had no logic - so yes i am fully aware of the need for schools. The site we found which was a former school owned by lewisham council we were told we couldn't have because they had just sold it to building developers and this was almost a year and a half ago.

If you could send me the thread to the family room i'd like to see what parents are saying.

many thanks

[DJKillaQueen]

Sadly Tom is right. There is a growing shortage of school places and children without places can't wait the years it takes to build new schools. All long as the teaching staff are in adaquate numbers, and the numbers using the building do not exceed the defined capacity of the buildings, I can't see what the issue is.

[LondonMix]

Agree DJQ. The demographic changes affecting much of London has led to widespread shortages that require bulging while more permanent solutions are undertaken.

If you are concerned, it might be more useful to ask the school how you can help them manage the additional demand on school resources than trying to fight the school's and the local authorities efforts to create the needed places.

[helenholden]

I am aware of the crisis in london as i said earlier - my child is due to start school in september, we only received notice of the bulge a few days ago - i excepted a place for my daughter with an already big intake of 90 reception children. Two days ago i learn it is now four form i.e 120 children. My question is - can the council/school actually do this? no one seems to have challenged them? Tomskip if you didn't receive a letter can i ask why didn't you question this action?

in reponse to DJQ - Lewisham need not necessarily build new schools, they need to simply make schools from the sites they own or turn disused sites into schools. Instead they turn them into housing. It's far easier.

The burden will continue all the time we don't challenge our council.

[Saffron]

Considering how long the waiting list for housing is, I'd say there are fair arguments on either side of the issue.

You can probably have the school admonished through some quasi official channel, but I don't think you can challenge the bulge itself without providing evidence of a better option within the council.

[buggie]

Helenholden; while I can understand you're point of view, what do you think should be done for the ?30+ children who don't currently have a reception place so that your children can have the school experience you were expecting?

I can't see how any LA or school takes the issue of bulging lightly, and am sure if the effect on schools was *that* detrimental there would've been countless threads about it on here as each ED school has bulged at least once in the last 5yrs.

[Saffron]

Re building new schools: I don'tthink that under new education laws local authorities are allowed to build new schools. They're meant only to expand existing schools, or work with setting up new free schools. This seems to be the government's way of trying to force councils to accept free schools, instead of letting them evolve over time. This seems to have backfired, souring people on the concept and simultaneously failing to create more school places.

So if you want to challenge it, you probably need to challenge it at the level of council policy (not at the level of the school itself). For example, could your local authority have done more to help establish new free schools, which could alleviate bulges in other schools?

There are 2 problems with this. 1, free schools may not have presented themselves in sufficient numbers. Or 2, free schools applying to the LA may not have offered enough places to make the viable (ie poor value for investment).

[helenholden]

Buggie: it pains me to think 269 children in this local authority do not have a place for september. i feel for every child and parent that are experiencing this - what i do have a problem with is schools being notified in no time to consider the needs of all these children. Which, our school has told us it only had five days notice before it then notified the parents on 16th july..every child deserves the RIGHT to start their school experience where the quality of their learning experience is not questioned.

Saffron: you are completely right - we need to challenge the council not the schools. The schools are trying to eleveate the problems that councils had full knowledge of and free schools unless aligned to the local needs are not deemed the answer. Free schools can only exist if parents are prepared to create funding, give up their day jobs and become fully committed to the future of a school (with a lot of cases of having no history in school environments) - alot of these schools are 'bespoke' in their offering and this will include their own admissions criteria which can be as little as eight children per year group..which will not align to the growing issues we are faced with.

[mrs.lotte]

It matters not whether a state school consults with the parents, the council can force a school to take a bulge but will only do so if there is sufficient space and resources, extra funding will be allocated.

My daughter is in a bulge year at Goose Green and whilst the mechanisms of rotating playtimes, lunchtimes, adapting classroms etc has doubtless been a headache for the school the impact on the children has been zero, they do all the trips, activities, learning, assemblies to parents, school productions etc they would have done anyway. In fact they are something of a flagship year and have probably had a surplus of attention.

If the school was expanding to a permenant 4 fe then I can see that might change its character but for one year I suspect it will make little difference to the children or families in the 3 original forms but a great deal to those in the bulge.

[Friends of Goodrich]

Deleted - Wrong log in!

[helenholden]

Hi mrs.lotte - this is good to hear of little impact to our little ones, how this impacts on sibblings to your school and admissions for next year..one can only hope this is accounted for.

unfortunately we have no knowledge as yet as to how our school will react to next years expectations - as with all schools in our area we will just have to react to where the demand falls, all we do know is that our school does have capacity in terms of space for some years but how it copes with the demand internally we will have to experience this and 'time will only tell' mentality. It could well be that next year it will experience another four form entry - if the needs are required than space will allow - already we know that the nursery is being moved from the confined area of where the reception children are to the year one area of the school which i feel again is wrong because i feel the nursery should be kept close to reception for these little ones to embrace children of similar ages and make their transition through the school holistic of their natural needs.

[Jacbuc]

Fairlawn is also in a similar position and has the same executive headas Kilmorie. I was disappointed that the situation was not more transparent - just announced as a done deal last week. I understand from a parent at the horniman school that they had been considering a bulge year again this year and had consulted parents some time ago. In the end they are not going ahead but have been told that they will probably have to take one next year. However at least the parents were made aware early on. I spoke with a friend whose child is starting fairlawn in sept and she has not even been informed yet - parents may have made a different choice had they known in advance

[Hillstop]

My understanding is that Horniman was slightly different as they physically couldn't cram another class in without doing renovations. The bulge class got held off a year so they could remodel the school. I've not seen anything that suggests the September 2014 bulge class is optional for the Horniman.

I presume the situation is different for Fairlawn / Kilmorie as there is some space to put the class, even if it does require shifting things about. And Lewisham probably leaned very heavily on them.

[kristymac1]

Jacbuc Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I spoke with a friend

> whose child is starting fairlawn in sept and she

> has not even been informed yet - parents may have

> made a different choice had they known in advance

I think many parents would argue there is no 'choice', we are fortunate to have some very good primary schools in the area, if they have capacity to enable local children to attend then I feel there is a responsibility to do so. we live in an area which has massive demand for spaces, I'm not sure any of those still waiting to secure a place (any place!) would mind being in the OP's position.

[LondonMix]

What different choice? If the need to bulge wasn't known until after everyone submitted their application listing their preferences I can't see what difference it makes finding out about the bulge now or when you accepted the place. Given the shortage of spaces, would any parent really have given up a place in a school that they originally selected because its bulging? The consequence of this would be to have no place guaranteed and having to join waiting lists for other schools. If you feel that strongly, that option remains open to you now.

The only way parents could feasibly have really made a different choice is if they were told before they applied to the school that the school may have to bulge. However, I think this is an implicit risk for any school you apply to in our area given the shortage of places and while some of the fault rests with poor planning from the LA (underestimating how many bulges would be needed), its also difficult to know with new families moving into the area, etc what will be needed.

At the end of the day, you are fortunate to have a local place at a school that you selected. Talk of trying to block the creation of a bulge class through legal action is really not very community minded.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Whatever issues the school has I can't imagine a scenario in which a law suit will make then better.

[Renata Hamvas]

I can't tell you whether Lewisham does the same, but Southwark inspects all primaries, identifying those that could expand temporarily or permanently. Discussions are then carried out with the schools. The process is already in the early stages for next year and information on those schools that are expected to bulge will probably be released before Xmas. Knowledge that a school is going to bulge actually tends to lead to more applicants as people know the last place offered distance is likely to be larger than usual. I don't know the system for Lewisham, but I suspect that these two late bulges are likely to be due to many late applicants near to Fairlawn and Kilmorie Primaries. I doubt many parents would not apply to their popular local school due to a proposed bulge. I have not been receiving complaints from parents whose schools have bulged, so this implies parents are not feeling a negative impact of their child being part of a bulged cohort.

Renata

[James Barber]

As Mrs.Lotte and tomskip said the odd temporary bulge class taking a school from 3 to 4 form entry is unlikely to have a negative impact on children in the school. But it isnt ideal. Quality is much more likely to be an issue if a permanent expansion to 4 form entry or a repeated bulge while another bulge is still going through the school.

The advice I;'ve had from several different sources is that the optimum size to ensure the best possible pupil experience is 2 or 3 form entry.

[Cyclemonkey]

Hi,

I'm not going to add any comments on the current debate as i am not parent to a child that is schooled around here (my partner has a child at school in North London)

If it helps put things in perspective i went to a primary school that had a number of "bulge classes" whilst i was there - our classes were around 30 - 40 children and there were a number of classes held in temporary class rooms/the school hall and lunches and sports activities were on a rota system. (and this was in the mid to late 1980s when quite frankly state schools were seriously underfunded - we had outside toilets that froze in winter, almost all my primary school classes were held in portakabins and we had no onsite kitchen so lunch was brough in from other schools and always cold and horrible!) This mainly happened due to a unexpected increase in young families in the two villages the school served (mainly due to a serious building programem of houses in the 1970s and 1908s encouragign young familes to move there out of the local town) and a serious lack of funding (the old Victorian school had been on a waiting list for rebuilding for many years before i joined and only happened in the late 1990s i think)

Of course school is not the only influence on a child and there are other detirminates of success but i came out absolutley fine and there was no detriment to my early education (although i remember being annoyed by the split lunch times if i could not have lunch with my friends from the other classes in my year)

[louisiana]

It would be good to see the end of the 'me, me, me' society. One day.

[Houseoflego]

Hi helenholden

I understand the worries around schools, we did not get into our nearest 7 schools a few years back and it was horrid. We did finally get into a school with a bulge class and its has not been noticeable. Your protests need to be seen in the context of shortage in the wider community. If there is no bulge then local children are excluded from their community which I'm sure you would not want.

It could be worse! We do just need to support our councillors to ensure that these schools are given the additional support they need and that the bulges are spread out fairly.

[Saffron]

If you're unhappy with the school, do let them know how you think it could have been handled differently, but in a supportive way if you can. It's not their fault they have to bulge.

Challenge current policy at the level of central government if you have the time and energy. Gove has made a pig's ear of education, and it's set to get worse. He's so far out of touch on education, he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

[Growlybear]

The governing bodies of schools can protest as much as they like when the local authority asks them to take a bulge class, but at the end of the day, the local authority has the power to insist that they take an extra class. Lewisham has been exceptionally badly affected by the shortage in primary school places, and has to put the extra children somewhere. These decisions are often made at a very late stage, long after the original offers for September places have gone out. I can't imagine what legal grounds the OP thinks that she could base a legal challenge on.

If my child's school was asked to take a bulge class at short notice, I would see it as a sign of the local authority's confidence that the school had strong enough leadership to be able to cope with an extra class at this late stage. No local authority is going to put a bulge class into a school where there is any doubt about the leadership's ability to manage the extra children without having a detrimental effect on the existing children at the school.