One (part of) Dulwich

[Spartacus]

7 minutes ago, march46 said:

Spoken like someone who has never sat at the front of a bus Spartacus. If you had you’d see they are persistently stuck behind parked cars, waiting for a space to move across to the other side of the road to get around them. Or stuck in traffic unable to use the bus lane due to parked cars.

Completely agree with @Earl Aelfheah. It’s appalling that buses can’t use the Lordship Lane bus lane because parked cars are allowed for the majority of the day. 

Speaking as someone who mostly uses buses to correct your assumption. 

If cars are parked in bus lanes, they get fined so unless the parking is allowed (e.g. timed bus lanes) then it's going to cost the driver for infringement and hopefully they won't do it again. 

The consequence of removing the timing of the bus lane on Lordship Lane (make it 24 hours) would have a disastrous impact on the retail businesses which potentially could see the area go down as a destination.

Be careful what you wish for .... 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Spartacus

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

31 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

As i mentioned before I don't believe parked cars slow down buses...Buses actually are fairly quick along Lordship Lane and rarely have issues traversing it so you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist 

Buses are quicker along the roads (like bits of Lordship Lane, Dog Kennel Hill, bits of the South Circular) where there are bus lanes, and slower along the bits where there are not bus lanes. In some places, the road is too narrow for a bus lane under any conditions - some of the roads in Dulwich were designed for Victorian carts. In other places, there has been a decision to allocate road space to car parking instead of a bus lane. The consequence of that decision is that buses are slower because they have to wait behind all the other traffic. This is undeniable.

Whether the bus can "traverse" these roads at all is a red herring. The question is whether bus speed and reliability is adversely impacted.

 

42 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

removing cars would potentially have the effect of slowing buses down as they become more popular.  

This made me lol! 

Does it go the other way too? If we pushed people off buses into low occupancy private cars, do you think that would improve bus speeds? 😀 😄 

[Spartacus]

18 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

 

This made me lol! 

Does it go the other way too? If we pushed people off buses into low occupancy private cars, do you think that would improve bus speeds? 😀 😄 

Is anyone suggesting that Billy ? I can't see anyone advocating that at all. 

There is a happy balance to strike and pushing the pendulum too far either way will break the system is the point I am making here. 

Your point on bus lanes, if they are so key, then why are TfL removing them for cycle lanes ? You can't have it both ways  either bus lanes are key to making buses faster, as per your opinion, or they aren't. But if they are then they should be sacrosanct and not interfered with or removed where they are already installed. 

Simple really, but currently the push to cycling doesn't rate bus journeys as important on the face of it. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

As i mentioned before I don't believe parked cars slow down buses

But if allocating road space to car parking instead of bus lanes doesn't slow down buses, then why is there

46 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

a happy balance to strike

between the two?

[malumbu]

Re earlier comment about children who have to be driven to school due to health issues; for SEN and those with mobility issues free school travel is available.  I expect that this only applies to state schools.  I expect some use health as an excuse to drive their kids to school.  My fave is I drive due to the risk of my child being run over.  That is genuine, but not carried out a scientific study.

 

[raptortruckman69]

I think they should remove all parking on Lordship lane to improve traffic flow for motorists. People can park elsewhere if they want to use the shops. But having one person clogging up the road for an hour occupying one space had a worse impact on cars and visitors than no parking on LL at all.

[Spartacus]

19 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Re earlier comment about children who have to be driven to school due to health issues; for SEN and those with mobility issues free school travel is available.  I expect that this only applies to state schools.  I expect some use health as an excuse to drive their kids to school.  My fave is I drive due to the risk of my child being run over.  That is genuine, but not carried out a scientific study.

 

You have the answer for everything without having to live in the shoes of those it impacts sir. 

Whilst there is free school travel for all under 18s, sometimes the route is to complex for those with mobility or cognitive impairments.

Live in their shoes before condemning them to an impossible journey. 

24 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

But if allocating road space to car parking instead of bus lanes doesn't slow down buses, then why is there

between the two?

Because we need both forms of transport and one size won't fit all in a busy cosmopolitan city. 

But if bus lanes are so important to you why are you ignoring their removal for cycle lanes ? 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

8 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Because we need both forms of transport and one size won't fit all in a busy cosmopolitan city. 

So is what you're saying that allocating road space to car parking instead of bus lanes can slow buses down, but that might be a price worth paying for other benefits?

[Spartacus]

7 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

So is what you're saying that allocating road space to car parking instead of bus lanes can slow buses down, but that might be a price worth paying for other benefits?

Again, you are trying to put words in my mouth. If you keep this up my mouth will be stretched wider than the Blackwall tunnel 😅

Lets be clear, I am not advocating removing bus lanes for parking, where they are installed they generally work well, but I am advocating not ruining a town centre by removing visitor parking to add in an unnecessary 24 hour bus lane.

just like I am advocating not removing bus lanes for cycle lanes as that snacks of double standards. Something you can't seem to agree on so obviously you don't believe bus lanes are that sacramental. 

[malumbu]

Have a lot to do with schools and SEN and well aware that some have transport laid on.  I'd love your evidence that for many this is not a valid option.  I doubt it. 

I'm an able bodied person, who since living and working in London haz cut down to maybe a few dozen hours a year needing to drive of be driven in a private car.  I expect that I am representative of many in my transport needs.  It feels that the needs of those who have to drive are very much exaggerated by some posting here, who are upset with traffic curbing measures.

Edited to add: for clarification the majority of us do have alternatives to private vehicles for many of our journeys.  For some individuals/families/groups and/or journeys this may not be the case and there is no argument against  this whether it be I need to visit a relative or have a day out at an event.

Edited August 12, 2024 by malumbu

[alice]

I think point is some SEN routes have been made much longer causing intense distress to the students because of the blocked roads/routes

[Spartacus]

47 minutes ago, malumbu said:

 

I'm an able bodied person, who since living and working in London haz cut down to maybe a few dozen hours a year needing to drive of be driven in a private car.  I expect that I am representative of many in my transport needs.  It feels that the needs of those who have to drive are very much exaggerated by some posting here, who are upset with traffic curbing measures.

Have you actually engaged with those who are less able than you or have additional needs or are you just spinning your wheels making opinions without facts 

As someone who has considerable mobility challenges, I have a fairly good insight to the issues, where as you obviously don't and what is a slight inconvenience for you could be a major hurdle for others.

Absolutely fed up with ableism on here by people like you.  

So your challenge, get strapped into a wheelchair for a week, you can borrow my spare , and without getting out of the chair for any reason, including getting on and off transport, goung to the loo and eating out (imagine the fun of finding your curry house toilets are downstairs only), try and navigate your life, and only then come back and say its all easy to get around.

Your first challenge get a train out of Peckham Rye and travel to Stratford. 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Spartacus

[Rockets]

So would you then also then advocate the removal of many of the cycle lanes in London that were installed at the cost of bus lanes and bus passengers?

And, as TFL has stated in relation to Croxted Road, conjestion and bus delays are being caused by displacement from the LTNs - I presume you aren't supportive of lobbying to have LTNs removed...of course not because in the blinkered world of pro-LTN lobbyists the prviate car is the sole reason for every problem there is......?

16 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

You certainly do! Some six year old  document based on even older data seems very important to you.

Do you have a more recent council review of transport in the area that states anything other than PTAL scores are poor? 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

2 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Again, you are trying to put words in my mouth. 

No, I'm trying to work out what the answers to the yes/no questions are! 

Do you think that the volume of other vehicles parked or being driven on roads in Dulwich affects the speed or reliability of buses - yes or no?

There's been a bit of a U-turn on the first bit (first saying car parking doesn't slow buses down at all, and then saying a balance is needed), and an answer to the second bit hasn't shown up yet...maybe it's stuck behind a bunch of private cars...

[Spartacus]

46 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

No, I'm trying to work out what the answers to the yes/no questions are! 

I clearly gave you my answer already, and I also explained the balance as in removing all bus lanes is idiotic as is removing all parking. That way is a sure fire killer for our already fragile shopping areas. 

Currently across London, with the exception of where bus lanes have been turned into cycle lanes, everything is in balance. 

Now why won't you answer the point about if bus lanes are oh so sacred, then why do you seem to accept removing them to make cycle lanes..

Either they are or they aren't important, no halfway house Billy, as you are just using tactics seen so many times of failing to answer and honing in in a minor detail. 

So over to you, if bus lanes are so important, do you agree or disagree that passenger journey times for mass transit systems should be sacrificed for cyclists benefit? 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

3 hours ago, Spartacus said:

I clearly gave you my answer already, and I also explained the balance... Currently across London, with the exception of where bus lanes have been turned into cycle lanes, everything is in balance...Either they are or they aren't important, no halfway house

So allocating road space for car parking instead of bus lanes doesn't slow buses, but there needs to be a balance between car parking and bus lanes when allocating road space, but there's no halfway house between bus lanes being important or unimportant? Crikey. If that was the clear answer to one half of a yes/no question, I won't ask again for the other half.

Still, TfL and Southwark Council will be very encouraged to hear they're doing a perfect job in balancing car parking and bus lanes (apart from Waterloo Bridge, I suppose). It's a contrast to the abuse and conspiracy theory they normally get treated to on here. I might make them a little plaque to commemorate it! Cheerio!!!

[Rockets]

4 hours ago, Spartacus said:

So over to you, if bus lanes are so important, do you agree or disagree that passenger journey times for mass transit systems should be sacrificed for cyclists benefit? 

Of course not because the blinkered view of the cycle lobby is that everything has to come after cyclists...everything...no matter what the impact. 

6 hours ago, Rockets said:

And, as TFL has stated in relation to Croxted Road, conjestion and bus delays are being caused by displacement from the LTNs - I presume you aren't supportive of lobbying to have LTNs removed...of course not because in the blinkered world of pro-LTN lobbyists the prviate car is the sole reason for every problem there is......?

Defeaning silence on this one...

[Spartacus]

Have you noticed how people like Billy all have the same MO, they find something insignificant to pick at, and keep picking at it until the original poster gets bored of their games all the while trying to make the poster look stupid and twist their words, yet not once do they answer direct questions put to them that challenge their beliefs.

It's like they have all been issued a rule book of engagement. It's a pity that the same rules book doesn't contain the rules of safe sociable cycling because if ot did, we would all get along a heck of a lot better. 

I would also like to add, Billy I'm bored of you now, go play with someone who gives a damn about your games. Although that's possibly a solitary sport. 

[malumbu]

Bit personal.  I try to avoid personal comments.  But if you want to make that accusation you could say that applies to a number of us.  

[first mate]

"And, as TFL has stated in relation to Croxted Road, conjestion and bus delays are being caused by displacement from the LTNs - I presume you aren't supportive of lobbying to have LTNs removed...of course not because in the blinkered world of pro-LTN lobbyists the prviate car is the sole reason for every problem there is......?

This!

[Earl Aelfheah]

9 hours ago, first mate said:

"And, as TFL has stated in relation to Croxted Road, conjestion and bus delays are being caused by displacement from the LTNs - I presume you aren't supportive of lobbying to have LTNs removed...of course not because in the blinkered world of pro-LTN lobbyists the prviate car is the sole reason for every problem there is......?

This!

This was right at the start of the launch of the scheme and was specific to Croxted Road. They made changes to the scheme accordingly to address it (literally years ago). There is no evidence that LTNs delay buses generally, and certainly not on Lordship Lane specifically. In fact the data suggests that traffic has decreased across the whole area as a result of the LTN (albeit marginally).

If you think that buses don't get held up by private vehicles and parked cars then you can't be paying attention, or just don't want to see it.

To maintain that LTNs are delaying buses, but that the hundreds of private vehicles (often single occupancy and making journeys of less than 2 km) have no impact, is literally deranged.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Traffic decreases in an LTN, no shit Sherlock! 

[Earl Aelfheah]

 

6 minutes ago, first mate said:

Traffic decreases in an LTN, no shit Sherlock! 

No. The data showed that traffic decreased on average, across the wider area. Both inside and outside the LTN. Do keep up.

…and I’m sorry, but I cannot believe that anyone honestly believes that buses are not held up by private vehicles and the congestion that they cause. You can argue whether or not it’s an acceptable trade off, but not bus times are unaffected, it’s laughable.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah

[alice]

 repetition of untruths. Doesn’t change the number of cars travelling down under Hill Road.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It is not an ‘untruth’ to say the data showed a decrease in traffic across the wider area. Of course ‘the wider area’ means those roads that were monitored. That didn’t include underhill road, but did (from memory) include part of Lordship lane.

I believe the data showed traffic decreased by 12% compared to before the scheme, across all count sites. The monitoring went on for many months so not sure whether this was the final position but it was certainly in that ball park. It is not the case that traffic ‘only’ fell within the boundaries of the LTN as claimed above.

On the other point I have to concede… Queues of private vehicles actually speed up buses 😂

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Earl Aelfheah