One (part of) Dulwich

[Spartacus]

3 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

 

It's true that the buses would be faster and more reliable if there were fewer private vehicles logging up the roads. We can either demolish thousands of houses along bus routes to build new bus lanes or we can reduce the number of private vehicles being used and parked in London. But there's no magical way to speed up buses and let every Tom, Dick and Harry drive and park freely at the same time.

That's rubbish Billy 

At the moment it's school holidays and traffic is freer flowing, yet the buses aren't quicker. They still stop at the same stops, pick up as many passengers and are restricted to 20 mph. 

In fact if one dares to be quicker, then the dreaded "driver will wait here to regulate the service" occurs so even with less cars around, buses take just as long to get to their destination.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

 

1 hour ago, Spartacus said:

it's school holidays and traffic is freer flowing

So you don't think that the volume of other vehicles parked or being driven on the roads affects the speed or reliability of buses? 🤔 

[Spartacus]

Buses have bus lanes, they also operate mainly  on wide roads where if cars are parked, it doesn't block them from moving so absolutely I do believe that parked cars, unless blocking the road for all users, don't slow down buses. 

What does slow down buses, are when cycle lanes are installed where bus lanes used to be, take Waterloo bridge as a prime example, or the Aldwich, both areas are now slower for buses then before TfL installed cycle lanes or pedestrian areas. 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

So when road space is taken up by cycle lanes that preclude bus lanes, it does slow buses down -- but when road space is taken up by parked cars that preclude bus lanes it doesn't slow buses down? 🤔 

[Spartacus]

1 hour ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

So when road space is taken up by cycle lanes that preclude bus lanes, it does slow buses down -- but when road space is taken up by parked cars that preclude bus lanes it doesn't slow buses down? 🤔 

Don't be a silly Billy 

When bus lanes are removed and replaced by cycle lanes, it slows buses down. 

As said, apart from a few residential streets, buses tend to traverse roads that have enough room for parked cars and buses to pass freely so your argument is nonsensical. 

Keep twisting, eventually you will tie yourself up in knots.... 

Edited August 10 by Spartacus

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

29 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

As said, apart from a few residential streets, buses tend to traverse roads that have enough room for parked cars and buses to pass freely so your argument is nonsensical. 

You don't think that allocating street space to car parking instead of bus lanes slows buses, but you do think that allocating street space to cycle lanes instead of bus lanes slows buses. Got it.

To bring it back to Dulwich: if the stretches of bus lane on Lordship Lane/A205 up to Forest Hill were removed and replaced with car parking spaces, it wouldn't slow buses down. But if those stretches of bus lane on Lordship Lane were removed and replaced with a cycle lane, it would slow buses down.

Absolutely clear. 👍 

[Spartacus]

27 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

You don't think that allocating street space to car parking instead of bus lanes slows buses, but you do think that allocating street space to cycle lanes instead of bus lanes slows buses. Got it.

Again trying to incorrectly twist what I say, keep going as it is making you look even sillier Billy 

27 minutes ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

To bring it back to Dulwich: if the stretches of bus lane on Lordship Lane/A205 up to Forest Hill were removed and replaced with car parking spaces, it wouldn't slow buses down. But if those stretches of bus lane on Lordship Lane were removed and replaced with a cycle lane, it would slow buses down.

Absolutely clear. 👍 

Did anyone actually suggest that we remove bus lanes for parking or is that all in your mind? 

You really are trying to make parking on wide streets where buses can also traverse without issues seem to be a problem when it's not. 

Yet you are ignoring that where bus lanes are removed for cycle lanes, it has a massive impact on journey times. 

Getting bored of your pedantic comments now

 

Edited August 10 by Spartacus

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

43 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

You really are trying to make parking on wide streets where buses can also traverse without issues seem to be a problem when it's not. 

Do you think that the volume of other vehicles parked or being driven on roads in Dulwich affects the speed or reliability of buses - yes or no?

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Do you think that the volume of other vehicles parked or being driven on roads in Dulwich affects the speed or reliability of buses - yes or no?

As you like to keep digging, I've ordered you one of these from toolstation near the Horniman's museum. 

https://www.toolstation.com/hawksmoor-all-steel-digging-spade/p67067?store=GE&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed

You can take a bus (185, 176) from dog kennel hill to collect it and find out for yourself 😂

Edited August 10 by Spartacus

[Rockets]

11 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

You don't know you're born if you think public transport in Dulwich is poor.

It would appear that Southwark think differently to you as they state that the PTAL scores are low/poor in Dulwich. And that is the measure of public transport accessibility used across the country so that seems to be a far better indication of the reality than your personal analysis.

In fact, and it is worth mentioning, Southwark said that areas with low PTAL scores are not good for LTNs as there are so few alternative travel options.....

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

51 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

As you like to keep digging

I do keep digging because I'm so intrigued in your answer: yes or no?

47 minutes ago, Rockets said:

 PTAL scores are low/poor in Dulwich. 

This is totally untrue, no matter how many times Mr OneDulwich says it.

Most people in Dulwich live in places that are PTAL rated 3, 4 or 5, which is mid to high ratings. And the two chunks that are rated 2 are along East Dulwich Grove and the low density housing each side of College Rd/Dulwich Village...where the 37, 42 and P4 are disrupted and delayed by the volume of private cars driven and parked along those roads.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-planning-and-construction/planning-with-webcat/webcat?Input=Lordship Lane%2C London SE22 8EW%2C UK&locationId=EiJMb3Jkc2hpcCBMYW5lLCBMb25kb24gU0UyMiA4RVcsIFVLIi4qLAoUChIJC-5HvOoDdkgRh6-WI-1PwbASFAoSCRFsZN-WA3ZIEXwoypxXGVcB&scenario=Base Year&type=Ptal

 

[Rockets]

8 hours ago, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

This is totally untrue, no matter how many times Mr OneDulwich says it.

 Southwatk's own reports state otherwise and your cant rewrite published data and comments from Southwark themselves...According to the Southwark Council 2018 Transport report (https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/6887/Dulwich-TMS-SDG-Full-Report-Final-April-2018-.pdf)

Southwark states categorically that:

 

The Dulwich area has a low level of public transport accessibility. Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich, particularly those where schools are located have a level 2 of accessibility translating into a higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of Dulwich. 

This is confirmed also by more general DfT accessibility statistics which show that, in general the area has a lower public transport accessibility level than the remainder of Southwark whilst by car it tends to be on par with the other parts of the borough or somewhat higher for hospitals, particularly due to the proximity of Dulwich Community Hospital. 

[raptortruckman69]

Speaking of wasting money it looks like they are building a huge soakaway where the road used to be. It's Thames Water who will benefit from that.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

4 hours ago, Rockets said:

According to the Southwark Council 2018 Transport report...

...that relies on data that is (at least) six years old. The link to the up to date data on the TfL website is above.

[first mate]

I've just looked at the link provided by DKHB, and it has Dulwich Village marked up on the map in shades of purple and light blue, so scores of 1a, 1b and 2, at best?

Lordship Lane in East Dulwich (towards Goose Green and Dog Kennel Hill, scores much higher). But seems Dulwich Village, home of Dulwich Square, has scores about as low as you can get? If I have misread or misunderstood, happy to be corrected.

[malumbu]

It's all relative.  London probably has the best and cheapest public transport in the country.  I expect that everyone in SE22 is within 15 mins walk or bus ride from a station.  The PTALs scores are simple comparisons but by this it gives some an excuse to criticise public transport and measures to get us out of cars.  Get real!

[first mate]

Are you saying PTAL scores in Dulwich Village are not what is on the map ie about as low as you can get?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

29 minutes ago, first mate said:

Dulwich Village, home of Dulwich Square, has scores about as low as you can get?

Yes, exactly - Dulwich Village (and the strip of low-density/expensive housing either side of it, and Dulwich Park, and the sports clubs, and Dulwich College) scores low on PTAL. Dulwich as a whole (and particularly the parts of Dulwich where most residences are packed into) scores well on PTAL.

"Calculating PTAL scores is fairly straightforward and is based on the distance to the nearest public transport stop from a given point, as well as the frequency and reliability of the services using that stop. Each point is then awarded a score from 1 (extremely poor access) to 6 (excellent access), with subdivisions 1a, 1b and 6a, 6b." https://blog.podaris.com/ptal-accessibility-analysis/

So obviously that low housing density part of Dulwich is going to score worse on PTAL than the rest of Dulwich because for the most part:

a) you're a few minutes' walk from a bus stop that only has a single route (the P4 along College Rd or P13 along A205 or 37 along HML) or West Dulwich/North Dulwich/Herne Hill BR as the nearest public transport stop (esp if you're standing in the middle of the playing fields or parks etc that constitute a lot of the blue blob).

b) the P4's reliability is poor because its obstructed by the volume of traffic and/or parked cars along the South Circular, College Rd, Dulwich Village, Red Post Hill etc... Just about the only bus lane the P4 has between Brixton Police Station and Ladywell is the stretch between the tile shop and the Horniman on the A205. The rest of the time it's stuck behind low occupancy traffic.

An exception to this is in the weekday mornings and afternoons when the Dulwich Village timed restriction is on: then it flies between the A205 and North Dulwich...and gets stuck behind private cars again.

Mind you, to go back to an earlier point, 90% of this country would love to be a few minutes' walk from a bus that runs 20 hours a day, at least every 15 minutes, costs £1.75, and connects to a tube station, half a dozen rail stations on several lines and a DLR station. 

53 minutes ago, first mate said:

I've just looked at the link provided by DKHB, and it has Dulwich Village marked up on the map in shades of purple and light blue, so scores of 1a, 1b and 2, at best?

Sorry - edit to add that the PTAL-rated 1 areas (the purple bits) up to Sydenham Hill are pretty much all playing fields, parks, golf course etc. Obviously there isn't great public transport running through the centre of Dulwich Park!

[first mate]

Perhaps my eyes are deceiving me, but it seems on that map that the majority of residential streets in Dulwich Village are light blue ( a 2 ) and the rest purple, yes?

When Rockets referred to Dulwich I assumed they meant the Village. I always refer to East Dulwich as East Dulwich or ED. Again, if I have misinterpreted another post, I am sure they will correct.

All said though, the scoring is pretty crude; I see that TJ Centre scores both a 3 and a 4:)

'Score well' is also a bit ho hum. The best overall score for ED is 4, so we are not in the realms of excellent services. The colour coded map is very clear as a comparison to those parts of London, all in shades of red, that have great public transport.

 

 

Edited August 11 by first mate

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

1 hour ago, first mate said:

we are not in the realms of excellent services. The colour coded map is very clear as a comparison to those parts of London, all in shades of red, that have great public transport.

Ehh - if you want to live in a red zone, then you're basically either living within about 300-400 metres of a train station or you're living along a major artery like Walworth Rd or Norwood Rd that has multiple 24 hour buses. That's not a realistic ambition for most of Dulwich...

...but we could realistically make the existing bus routes more reliable and efficient by getting some of the low occupancy private vehicles that are clogging up limited road space.

Edited August 11 by Dogkennelhillbilly

[Rockets]

I repeat...the council themselves concluded....

 

The Dulwich area has a low level of public transport accessibility. Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich, particularly those where schools are located have a level 2 of accessibility translating into a higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of Dulwich....

.....since they haven't done another Transport report since 2018 and since, if anything, the provision of public transport accessibility has declined since then it seems the conclusion the council came to holds true.

Around the same time the council suggested that only areas with high PTAL scores would be suitable for LTNs....and then what did they do...put and LTN right in the middle of an area that they concluded that: "the area has a lower public transport accessibility level than the remainder of Southwark"....

Kind of a bit daft dont you think?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

I repeat...

You certainly do! Some six year old  document based on even older data seems very important to you.

Meanwhile, for anyone else who has an interest, the up to date PTAL data is freely available on the TfL website (link below). People can come to their own conclusion about whether Mr OneDulwich's multiyear odyssey to abolish LTNs and increase private vehicle access will make public transport better or worse.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-planning-and-construction/planning-applications/planning-with-webcat

[Earl Aelfheah]

Easiest way to improve bus travel in ED would be to make the bus lanes along Lordship Lane 24/7. Second, remove the parking on Lordship Lane, to allow more room for buses to pass each other. These two simple changes would significantly improve journey times. 

The worst thing you could do is encourage more private vehicles.

[Spartacus]

On 10/08/2024 at 20:20, Dogkennelhillbilly said:

Do you think that the volume of other vehicles parked or being driven on roads in Dulwich affects the speed or reliability of buses - yes or no?

Okay 

As i mentioned before I don't believe parked cars slow down buses 

Reasons are as follows

1. Majority of bus routes are on wider streets that can accommodate both buses traversing and cars being parked, so in these situations parked cars won't impact the speed of the bus. Clear examples are Barry Road, Lordship Lane and Peckham Rye. In fact, what has occured is that the standout bus stops that were installed to stop cars infringing on where buses pull in, have now had the effect of slowing down all road users when a bus stops there, sometime actually other buses. 

2. On some routes, p14 for example, they are designed to traverse narrower residential streets where the timetable has been built around the route and road conditions so again there is no impact on speed by parked cars. 

3. Regardless, buses are obliged to stop at all bus stops and pick up passengers and also travel at the speed limit of 20 mph (where they can) and with the distance between stops so short then there is little chance for Lewis Hamilton style driving through London so speed isn't a factor.

4. If the cycling lobby (used in a loose context) get their way and remove all cars from Londons streets then more people would use buses, which in turn would make them more crowded, leading to

a. More buses required per route thus making roads just as congested.

b. More people getting on and off at each stop, increasing time at each bus stop. 

c. More frequent stopping at request stops 

Therefore removing cars would potentially have the effect of slowing buses down as they become more popular. 

But as we all know, cities like London need a multitude of different vehicles to make them work, be it buses, trams, delivery vehicles, trade vehicles (imagine your washing machine repair man coming out and going, sorry love, gotta get a bus to Barnet to get you a new drum to fix that, ) emergency services, disabled drivers, long distance commuters who can't get to their destination any other way, parents who need to drive children for medical or health reasons, care workers vehicles, ....the list is endless so be careful what you wish for as the realisation may be harder to achieve without damaging the way a modern city operates. 

7 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Easiest way to improve bus travel in ED would be to make the bus lanes along Lordship Lane 24/7. Second, remove the parking on Lordship Lane, to allow more room for buses to pass each other. These two simple changes would significantly improve journey times. 

The worst thing you could do is encourage more private vehicles.

Buses actually are fairly quick along Lordship Lane and rarely have issues traversing it so you are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist 

[march46]

Spoken like someone who has never sat at the front of a bus Spartacus. If you had you’d see they are persistently stuck behind parked cars, waiting for a space to move across to the other side of the road to get around them. Or stuck in traffic unable to use the bus lane due to parked cars.

Completely agree with @Earl Aelfheah. It’s appalling that buses can’t use the Lordship Lane bus lane because parked cars are allowed for the majority of the day.