One (part of) Dulwich

[malumbu]

A congested rat run, that is no longer.  

[alice]

Keep telling yourself that was the motive. 

[first mate]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

A congested rat run, that is no longer.  

But the increased congestion at that junction (and associated increased pollution) occurred after the council made their alterations. The uptick was part of the council's report into the alterations - they basically admitted they had made the problem worse (at great expense to the tax payer).

[malumbu]

That's because too many drivers are not making smart motoring decisions. Can I get to my destination in other ways including lift sharing, the school run is particularly illuminating with respect to low vehicle occupancy.  Do I need to send my kids a long way to school in the first place?  Not just applies to school but work, retail and leisure.

Can't fathom why drivers used to sit in the jams around Court Lane most weekday rush hours.  From what you say many still do this, but on different roads.

So as I have said numerous times over the years the cause of congestion is down to motor vehicles, on our roads with varying degrees of necessity.  I'm sure we all know people who make many non-essential journeys (yes that is subjective).

Hopefully the new government will get to grips with some of this, rather than the  half assed attempts of Johnson and the pro car Sunak

[first mate]

But don't see how any of that justifies or explains spending £5million on the creation of Dulwich Sq?

The council's justification for all this was to reclaim land and create a safe space for people to connect, socialise and play? Even you must admit given the site, local geography, wealth and resources available, plus the multiple destinations and opportunities to 'safely connect, socialise and play' that already exist in Dulwich, this looks an exercise in extreme profligacy by the council.

 

[Rockets]

5 hours ago, malumbu said:

Can't fathom why drivers used to sit in the jams around Court Lane most weekday rush hours. 

Could it be, per chance, because they had to as the other options to do their journey did not work for them? Throw in a lack of East/West routes across Dulwich, a smattering of awful PTAL scores and it doesn't take a genius to work out why......

 

Congestion is indeed caused by traffic but, in 2017, increased congestion at that junction was caused by the council's attempts to make it less congested. A bit like the displacement from the LTNs...caused solely by the council's actions.

 

In years to come someone will expose why Southwark councillors spent so much money on that junction and why. Remember this current round of works was submitted as an £8m project that was laughed out of the room. One has to question whether Southwark councillors and the council are up to the job.

Edited July 31 by Rockets

[Sue]

On 31/07/2024 at 11:15, alice said:

It has never been anything to do with cars, never anything to do with pollution or bikes. It is to do with preserving privilege in, as stated, an already very wealthy and powerful area.

But why would the council want to do that?

I genuinely can't see that that would be the reason, unless there are some shenanigans I'm not aware of.

[Spartacus]

It does seem a rather large sum of money to add more space to an area overflowing with space. 

Could that money have been used elsewhere to make improvements? 

It does feel like there is a vested interest in the works going ahead rather than forensically examine cost vs benefit. 

But what do I know, I'm only a tax payer 

 

[Rockets]

My money is on shenanigans.....someone will have promised something to someone and there would have been some quid pro quo involved....

 

One day we will find out...after all for the council to ignore the pleads of the emergency services for so long and continually delay response times the strategic reasons for keeping that junction as was must have been huge.

[KalamityKel]

On 31/07/2024 at 14:17, malumbu said:

Hopefully the new government will get to grips with some of this, rather than the  half assed attempts of Johnson and the pro car Sunak

🤣

[first mate]

It occurs that the very large development on the old garage site will possibly have gained considerably by having a once busy junction transformed  into a car free zone. There may be no connection at all, but...

[DulvilleRes]

The space is of huge benefit to the whole community. It is already used by people who chose not to sit in crowded cafes, or might struggle to afford to do so. Dulwich is clearly a destination for people who don't live in the area to have some time out, having somewhere large and pleasant to sit in the heart of the village will only help that. The fact that people visit Dulwich only helps with its sense of vibrancy. 

[Spartacus]

11 minutes ago, DulvilleRes said:

The space is of huge benefit to the whole community. It is already used by people who chose not to sit in crowded cafes, or might struggle to afford to do so. Dulwich is clearly a destination for people who don't live in the area to have some time out, having somewhere large and pleasant to sit in the heart of the village will only help that. The fact that people visit Dulwich only helps with its sense of vibrancy. 

There's a huge park almost on top of the square that can be used for that sort of thing 🤣

[Penguin68]

45 minutes ago, DulvilleRes said:

Dulwich is clearly a destination for people who don't live in the area to have some time out, having somewhere large and pleasant to sit in the heart of the village will only help that.

Not now it isn't considering the poor public transport and enmity towards car drivers. Unless it's another 'just for cyclists' perk of course. Which I'm guessing it is. Cyclists who are fit enough to negotiate the hills which hem us in, of course. And are averse to sitting in leafy and verdant parks.

[first mate]

So Dulwich Park and its cafe, Belair Park and its restaurant, the large cafe and restaurant in the extensive Dulwich Picture Gallery grounds, plus the Greyhound pub and its very large gardens, the many cafes with extensive outdoor seating, are not enough for people to safely connect, socialise and play? 

Edited August 2 by first mate

[Glemham]

It’s not really about creating yet another public space. It’s the obsession of Dulwich Village ward  councillors and the pro cycling-anti-car-at-all-costs lobby. Driven, as others have pointed out, by the expensive failure of the remodelled junction. The Council and TfL were lobbied at the time by a group who crowd-funded to instruct an independent planner for an alternative model. This would have used mini roundabouts rather than traffic lights, slowing the traffic down whilst keeping it moving. Not surprisingly it was dismissed as having no merit. The re-modelled junction was, as predicted, a failure, but Southwark couldn’t lose face, nor afford to start again.

Along comes Covid and the restrictions ordered by a right wing Government were, ironically, the saving grace for a left of centre Council - if it can’t be changed then it can be closed! No tedious consultation with residents needed and problem solved.
Some local residents luxuriating in a few now quiet roads and uncaring about the displacement of heavy traffic to other residential roads took it upon themselves to decide that the small space at the closed junction should become a public ‘square’. Once again no wider consultation but a fait accompli aided and abetted by the Ward councillors. It only needed the trustees of the Dulwich Society to ‘indicate’ that the members (who were never consulted) would not oppose the scheme for it to become a reality. Somehow, somewhere the money has been found for this vanity project. 
 

[Rockets]

Bravo! Well said! And the council.were pleading poverty with every other word they uttered...go figure...might they have been, ahem, being a little economical with the truth...

Edited August 3 by Rockets

[Nigello]

On 02/08/2024 at 09:40, DulvilleRes said:

The space is of huge benefit to the whole community. It is already used by people who chose not to sit in crowded cafes, or might struggle to afford to do so. Dulwich is clearly a destination for people who don't live in the area to have some time out, having somewhere large and pleasant to sit in the heart of the village will only help that. The fact that people visit Dulwich only helps with its sense of vibrancy. 

Dulwich is not vibrant - it’s pleasant but rather beige (and that’s a good thing as it befits the nice leaafiness which many find attractive). So, a place to sit down is not likely to add to or create the liveliness you mistakenly allude to and even if it did, there are plenty of other options to rest one’s lower limbs. 
Money spent (wasted?) on this Icelandic saga-long junction malfunction could have been given to, say, an experimental micro-bus service. Court Lane has a wide, tree-lined carriageway, comparatively spacious footpaths, and deep front gardens that lead to well-insulated houses with much outside space at the rear, so a fair bit of any noise or air pollution would be absorbed (should the primary use of a thoroughfare - to allow travel - ever be reallocated to it). 

[Kathleen Olander]

On 29/07/2024 at 15:12, malumbu said:

Congestion is due to people driving.  If there is less driving then there is less pollution.  If more drivers took their responsibilities seriously the world would be a better place.  Is this journey necessary?  Can I use alternative means?  Could I lift share??? 

I'm looking forward to the improvements at Court Lane junction.  I recall the traffic jams there when I used it as my bike commuting route in the 90s

One of the improvements are speed humps to slow the cyclists down.

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, Kathleen Olander said:

One of the improvements are speed humps to slow the cyclists down.

Bmx track ? 

[raptortruckman69]

They take money from drivers to find vanity projects like this.

[malumbu]

That may be your understanding but surely we all remember what a nasty congested junction this was for four hours a day, 200 days a year.  

[Rockets]

Yup, but that's not the issue. The issue is how much money the council has wasted spending on this junction since it was closed and why the council, and the ward councillors,  refused to listen to the evidence from emergency services that their continued blocking of the junction was delaying response times. Which councillor kept advising to ignore that input? And, perhaps more importantly, why was that junction design more important than emergency vehicle response times?

No one seems to be able to provide a rational explanation...why? Because there isn't one.

Ideology was prioritised over emergency vehicle response times. What a sorry state of affairs and the person/s responsible should hang their head in shame. One day we will learn who it was.

 

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 02/08/2024 at 10:28, Penguin68 said:

Not now it isn't considering the poor public transport and enmity towards car drivers.

You don't know you're born if you think public transport in Dulwich is poor.

Dulwich has three train stations (East, North, West) that run first thing in the morning to last thing at night. It also has a zillion bus routes running through it, some of which run 24 hours a day. They're all integrated into a single ticketing system and each bus and train is live trackable and accessible for people with disabilities. Speak to anyone outside London or in zone 4-6 and they'd be stunned anyone is moaning about this stuff.

It's true that the buses would be faster and more reliable if there were fewer private vehicles logging up the roads. We can either demolish thousands of houses along bus routes to build new bus lanes or we can reduce the number of private vehicles being used and parked in London. But there's no magical way to speed up buses and let every Tom, Dick and Harry drive and park freely at the same time.

[Kathleen Olander]

On 02/08/2024 at 09:40, DulvilleRes said:

The space is of huge benefit to the whole community. It is already used by people who chose not to sit in crowded cafes, or might struggle to afford to do so. Dulwich is clearly a destination for people who don't live in the area to have some time out, having somewhere large and pleasant to sit in the heart of the village will only help that. The fact that people visit Dulwich only helps with its sense of vibrancy. 

The only people that sat on those awful seats at DV junction were workmen stopping to have a fag.

Once it is tarted up, who on earth would want to sit there breathing in fumes from the all the vehicles that are now forced onto Dulwich Village?  There are so many green areas to sit, such as Dulwich Park, Belair, Dulwich Picture Gallery etc