Education not taxation - please consider signing this petition!

[MissB]

The students it will impact the most will be the students coming from the private schools to the state schools.  I think the majority of parents who are earning closer to average salaries will explore an array of options, such as taking out loans via remortgaging their homes, renting, forgoing summer holidays etc.

Remember there are also online/virtual schools in the UK which offer full time curriculums from ages 4-19 with virtual 'live 'classes and they are taking off.  Even with the 20 percent increase in fees and the perhaps the additional cost of paying for someone to mind the child whilst they are learning at home, they will probably still be cheaper than an in-person private school in London.

I reckon some parents may already be exploring these options rather than placing their children into an undersubscribed local state school.  

 

 

[Ebenezer]

The reality is that private education also helps reduce the burden on state schools. I think it's a bit unfair that families paying for private schools should be penalised as they already are paying towards state education via their taxes.

Whats the government is doing with vat increase is to make private education even more elitist.

And for people who call for a ban private of education, using the same logic we should also ban private healthcare.

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, MissB said:

I reckon some parents may already be exploring these options rather than placing their children into an undersubscribed local state school.  

 

If they can find a place...primary is OK, secondary numbers are still growing and estimates suggest they won't start dropping for 5 years...

BBC News - London primary school numbers to drop by 52,000 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cly559jnd2zo

[alice]

1 hour ago, MissB said:

The students it will impact the most will be the students coming from the private schools to the state schools.  I think the majority of parents who are earning closer to average salaries will explore an array of options, such as taking out loans via remortgaging their homes, renting, forgoing summer holidays etc.

Remember there are also online/virtual schools in the UK which offer full time curriculums from ages 4-19 with virtual 'live 'classes and they are taking off.  Even with the 20 percent increase in fees and the perhaps the additional cost of paying for someone to mind the child whilst they are learning at home, they will probably still be cheaper than an in-person private school in London.

I reckon some parents may already be exploring these options rather than placing their children into an undersubscribed local state school.  

 

 

 online classes are not in any way a substitute for an education. 

[MissB]

Nothing beats a child getting ready for school, being in a school all day and mixing with their peers at break time.  However, for those parents who do not want their children in an undersubscribed state school and who can not afford to pay the extra 20 percent, all avenues will have to be explored, even the dreaded option of homeschooling.

I am sure the Guardian will do an article about it in their Education section.

I did not make the rule, this current government did and like Thatcher, they're not for turning.

[Jules-and-Boo]

What's so dreaded about Homeschooling? I know a number of families who do this very happily and successfully. 

[alice]

So, when there was national homeschooling during  Covid, standards rose did they?

Edited September 21 by alice
Commas

[Jules-and-Boo]

That question makes no sense

[Rockets]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c04plzgyvg4o

 

[malumbu]

Quoting from the above - a headteacher said that any policy that increases in investment in state education has to be a good thing.  I assume that is why the BBC article was posted.

[lollol]

Frankly, this policy is getting more and more worrying every day. Now, if you have a child in a nursery class that is 5 or will be 5 in that year, the whole nursery class is charged VAT or for Montessori schools with mixed age classes. I do think VAT on private nurseries and private universities is next!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/toddlers-caught-labours-private-school-tax-raid/#:~:text=Toddlers will inadvertently be taxed,“mixed-age” classes.

Edited September 26 by lollol

[malumbu]

Montessori schools are private so will have to pay VAT.  Not sure what the confusion is. I expect most of us who never even considered sending our kids to Prep school, Montessori or Steiner have particular sympathy.  Of course in a years time we will see and you may say "I told you so".

[Rockets]

What I don't understand is those that are clamouring for this says there is an urgent need for more teachers yet they also say there are lots of places at schools for the children leaving private school due to dwindling pupil numbers (at primary especially). Surely then the teacher "gap" can, in part, be plugged by this?

 

This does seem a very blinkered, dog whistle attack on a certain part of private education and it will be interesting to see how the courts (and Europe) views it. Given the government accelerated the rollout to happen in the middle of a school year (which no-one thought was a good idea) probably shows they may not believe they are on strong ground - it feels like a "beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission" situation.

[lollol]

4 hours ago, Rockets said:

What I don't understand is those that are clamouring for this says there is an urgent need for more teachers yet they also say there are lots of places at schools for the children leaving private school due to dwindling pupil numbers (at primary especially). Surely then the teacher "gap" can, in part, be plugged by this?

 

This does seem a very blinkered, dog whistle attack on a certain part of private education and it will be interesting to see how the courts (and Europe) views it. Given the government accelerated the rollout to happen in the middle of a school year (which no-one thought was a good idea) probably shows they may not believe they are on strong ground - it feels like a "beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission" situation.

What I know as a state school parent, it would have been lovely if children benefited from the drop in numbers by having less children in their classes and more attention from their teachers. Many countries have 20-24 pupils in primary and 30-35 at secondary. We have 30 children here! PS - Yes, have children in both state and independent as not one size fits all in education.

5 hours ago, malumbu said:

Montessori schools are private so will have to pay VAT.  Not sure what the confusion is. I expect most of us who never even considered sending our kids to Prep school, Montessori or Steiner have particular sympathy.  Of course in a years time we will see and you may say "I told you so".

Sorry … the issue is that the government had said only children from compulsory school age would have VAT imposed. Many Montessori schools have mixed age classes so if 1 child is 5 in let’s say a group of 3-5 year olds, VAT is payable for all those children. This article explains it well.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/toddlers-caught-labours-private-school-tax-raid/#:~:text=Toddlers will inadvertently be taxed,“mixed-age” classes.

[Rockets]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5y0w6xg43o

 

The SEND pupil issue at private schools is a big issue often overlooked by those who support this action as the impact on many families is going to be awful.

[Rockets]

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools

[David Peckham]

I did a very quick & dirty calculation on this, based on the available numbers for England.

Even assuming an elasticity of zero, ie no pupils leaving the private sector due to the tax rise, the net increase in the budget for the state sector would be around 3.5%. That's before any costs associated with collection and administration, which doesn't seem to have been particularly well thought through, according to the above Guardian article.

It does all seem a bit 'dog whistle'. Even The Guardian calls the policy 'eye-catching' - there's very little substance to it.

The net effect is negligible, given the trouble it'll cause.

Edited October 6 by David Peckham
Sp

[malumbu]

On 04/10/2024 at 09:24, Rockets said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5y0w6xg43o

 

The SEND pupil issue at private schools is a big issue often overlooked by those who support this action as the impact on many families is going to be awful.

So for those families that can't afford to send children with special needs to private schools it's OK for them to get 'inferior' education?

The Guardian article appears quite vague on reductions in numbers at private schools as this is happening in state schools too as the birth rate declines.

Do those children going into reception at 4 count as compulsory school age?  If so surely those that go private will be subject to VAT 

On the comment on state school class sizes it's shocking that numbers are larger than when I was at school.  I'd like to think that Labour had done a proper assessment.  The dieing days of the Tories was shocking, we want this policy, government analyists "poor return on assessment", government policy heads "this won't work" - ministers and SPADs - "just do it".  Hoping Labour will be different despite too many early blemishes and poor decisions eg gifts.

Telegraph is hardly going to support Labour.  Headlines yesterday amused me.   One in four pensioners over 80 will not get winter fuel payment.  So, Daily Express they aren't short of money.  And according to the Mail we are giving the Falklands back.  Not that it would bother me, apart from (Port) Stanley is always a good answer on Pointless.  But Labour would be silly if this was a policy.

Ok, got into politics, and as said time will tell.

Ps poor poor handling by Labour on winter fuel allowance 

 

 

[Rockets]

Oh Bridget....deary me more ludicrous dog whistling...meanwhile back in the real world the NASUWT is urging Labour to delay the plans because of a worry of redundancies in the private sector that will be lost to teaching forever....there is far more at stake than embossed stationery. A seriously foolish post from an MP.

 

 

[malumbu]

Don't worry, Nigel and Kemi will sort it out when they get in, in 2029.  I bet you are looking forward to that.  

Got me thinking.  There is a teacher shortage in the state sector.  So if, just if, there were redundancies in private schools there are opportunities back in state schools.  OK probably at less pay, more stress etc etc.  So what are you saying, that we would lose teachers from the private sector, that will not want to teach in state schools?  Not sure why I should be concerned.  Perhaps a more open minded view on issues that bother you would be helpful.

I expect the union/s is doing what they should do.  Ie campaign against job cuts, irrespective of the bigger picture, as this is for government

[Rockets]

Malumbu - you clearly didn't read the Guardian article I posted so I recommend you do as it answers many of the points you raise - https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools 

 

I will ignore your comments on 2029 because you're either trolling or being incredibly childish.

[malumbu]

Please stop using the T word just because we don't agree.  

I'm pretty sure that neither of us had or have children at private schools so apart from the general sentiment we do not have intimate experience 

[Rockets]

I will, stop using the T-word when you stop displaying T-like behaviours……do you think everyone who doesn’t agree with you is right-wing - it seems to be your go-to name-calling for anything and everything where someone dares to express an opinion that differs to yours?

Just because I think VAT on private schools is a short-sighted dog whistle policy that may create chaos and cost more money than it will raise doesn’t make me some right-wing bigot - unless of course you think the NASUWT also suffers from right-wing leanings because they have expressed the same views as me….

[sorchamr]

VAT is charged on Toilet paper but not on Caviar.