Education not taxation - please consider signing this petition!

[Rockets]

It's rank hypocrisy. Punish those who want to better their children's education whilst you do exactly what you are attacking....very left wing of him!

The problem is those who send their children to private school already pay taxes that contribute towards state education - places in state schools that they do not take, so they are already doing their bit!

Now with the removal of business rates relief there is going to be a lot mroe pressure on smaller private schools.

This is a policy born out of Labour's hatred of private schools - like Greece it is ideological left-wing "socialism". Stuff it to those who want to strive to do the best for their family. Get used to it folks because they're coming for anyone who works hard and dares do something they don't,  ideologically, agree with.

 

All of those additional local taxes for those who have gardens or cars in Southwark is just the tip of the iceberg...watch for similar policies to be rolled out at national level. One wonders who they will upset next in October. 

[AJu]

https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/06/11/only-foolish-nations-tax-educational-services-labours-blind-spot-and-independent-schools/

[malumbu]

???? Do you have your own view????

[Rockets]

Who needs their own views when articles like this sum things up so perfectly..

 

The Labour Party is being deliberately disingenuous over what it terms private schools, but which in realty are predominantly not-for-profit independent schools. For Labour, ‘private’ education is equated with advantaged people and their children, but the reality is vastly different.

...There is a major problem here. Labour does not like ‘private schools’ and one could argue that this is one of the party’s ideologically derived blind spots. Across the EU, educational services are exempt from VAT and this reflects a responsible and informed approach to the contribution educational services make to national economic stability and responsible and inclusive economic growth. Any nation that places taxes on the provision of educational services is a foolish nation and the same holds for any political party.

 

For those on the left who respond to the dog whistle many don't actually take time to understand or learn about the potential consequences - that the very people that this is designed to protect may actually end-up being the ones negatively impacted the most by this blinkered ideological policy.

 

 

[malumbu]

The House of Lords 2024 report is interesting reading

Quoting selectively from this: She (Helen Hayes MP) argued that the government did not believe “the scaremongering that there will be an exodus of pupils into the state sector”, but that independent school pupils moving to state school would not impose significant costs on the government because “our state schools would be able to cope with an increase in their numbers”. She said that “across England, overall pupil numbers are due to decline by at least 100,000 per year until 2030; the total drop is higher than the number of children currently attending private schools”.

And: (IFS)  said surveys should not be heavily relied upon, as “how people respond to a survey is rarely a good guide to how they behave in practice”. It argued that parents’ responsiveness to fee increases is low because the proportion of children in independent schools has remained steady in recent years despite significant fee increases. It also stated that evidence suggests that parents who choose to send their children to private schools tend to be “concentrated at the very top of the income and wealth distributions and such individuals tend to have relatively complex income and wealth streams”.

There's lots of data on the concentration of those independently educated at the top of certain sectors including permanent secretaries and journalists, and Sunak's views on the aspirations of parents such as his who worked hard to give their kids the best opportunities (most of us aren't that fortunate of course).

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/independent-schools-proposed-vat-changes/

And a centre right/free market think tank that challenges the view of mass reduction in numbers privately educated.

https://iea.org.uk/in-defence-of-vat-on-private-school-fees/ 

Which argues that there is price inelasticity in this sector  ie you don't get the standard reduction in demand as prices go up.

A general plea, if you are going to put up articles to justify your case, do actually give your views, as otherwise I find this a lazy way of debating an issue

[Rockets]

We will find out who is right at the beginning of the next calendar year. The Greeks also predicted it would not cause any problems and then, ooops, someone was left with egg on their face.

 

Also remember that every child leaving private education to enter state not only impacts the revenue predicted from the application of VAT but also takes a place that was previously empty but being funded by the parents of said private pupil - thus costing more from the tax-payers purse in the form of a double-whammy.

There is also lots of research that suggests a small shift will mean the government will be left with a big hole to fill.

Let's see who is right...I know what my money is on as a lot of.privately educated children don't come from families rolling in cash (the reality is a long way from the spin put out by the government).

 

 

On 07/08/2024 at 12:25, malumbu said:

Sunak's views on the aspirations of parents such as his who worked hard to give their kids the best opportunities (most of us aren't that fortunate of course).

Of course but maybe some also choose to use their hard earned money on something else...like, (ahem) for example, owning a second home in France.....they may, justfiably in some minds, also find themselves in the tax cross-hairs come October....;-)

Edited August 8 by Rockets

[Ben Wile]

You keep dragging the Greeks into the conversation even if it is a completely different situation, as I outlined in my earlier comment.
 

Also the fact that you don’t send your children to a state school and therefore you indirectly pay further taxes may sound smart but it is a straw man’s argument. I indirectly pay taxes then by not using the road as I do not have a car. You do not pay taxes when not using services and infrastructure provided by the state. 

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, Ben Wile said:

You keep dragging the Greeks into the conversation even if it is a completely different situation, as I outlined in my earlier comment.
 

Of course I do because the left-wing Greek government was the only government that has tried to do something similar and it was an absolute disaster - again driven by a blinkered idealogical hatred of private schools.

Perhaps you know of a country that did this and it was a rip-roaring success?

As Starmer tries to cozy up to Europe again it will be interesting to see what the EU makes of this as they jumped on the Greeks very quickly when they tried this to tell them to stop.

BTW interesting that other countries take a very different approach - I didn't realise that private schools in France are funded/part-funded by the state. 

Edited August 11 by Rockets

[Ben Wile]

If it were just the private schools, it would be fine in Greece. However, as I mentioned before, due to legislative limitations, it included all forms of private schooling and tutoring, as well as sports classes. This is why it wasn't sustainable. The policy would have primarily affected the extracurricular schools that everyone sends their children to, regardless of income. Therefore, it's not a comparable situation.

I don’t see why it couldn't be successful. The state needs money, and if you can afford to pay 30,000 a year for your children’s education, an additional 6,000 shouldn’t be a significant burden. If you can’t, then I’m afraid you are minority. The majority of those who privately educate their children can.
 

Besides, educating your children privately is not a necessity. If the government needs to find money, which they do, I’d rather they raise taxes on private education than on necessities or essential goods. And as @malumbu wrote, evidence shows there won’t be a mass exodus from private schools. The income from private education will benefit everyone and will make better schools for all. This is equity. 

 

 

 

 

[Rockets]

19 hours ago, Ben Wile said:

If it were just the private schools, it would be fine in Greece. However, as I mentioned before, due to legislative limitations, it included all forms of private schooling and tutoring, as well as sports classes. This is why it wasn't sustainable.

You do realise, don't you, that the same definition of private education applies within UK VAT legislation as well and the government are going to have a challenge to unpick it all. Interesting article here: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/business-tax/labours-private-school-fees-pledge-requires-lesson-in-vat

One wonders why the Greek government had not thought about this challenge but this is the problem with ideological policies...the finer detail tends to get in the way of the dog whistling. As the Greek government found to their, and their education system's cost.

19 hours ago, Ben Wile said:

And as @malumbu wrote, evidence shows there won’t be a mass exodus from private schools.

A big difference between "evidence" and "modelling " and the report to which Malumbu refers is based on modelling (and roundly, and predictably, criticised by those against the measures) not evidence.

There was "evidence" that state schools were being bombarded with requests for places from parents with children at private school but this was spun as private parents doing it deliberately whether they needed a place or not.

We have to hope that is the case because if not then the state sector could be brought to its knees but I do think it is interesting schools in Beckenham are apparently being told to prepare to increase classes by two.

Time will tell....

 

Edited August 12 by Rockets

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

On 20/07/2024 at 11:33, Soylent Green said:

the comment about other European countries not taxing education conveniently omits to say that private schools are banned in much of Scandinavia

Point of order: where are private schools banned? They exist in Denmark, Sweden, Norway - not many of them, but they're not banned.

On 25/07/2024 at 16:58, northernmonkey said:

Its also true that the increase in fees has been in the region of 10% for each of the last few years in private schools locally. 

Dulwich College has apparently put their prices up 8% this year, as they have in most recent years. One leftist rag pointed out that boarding fees at Dulwich College have been higher than at Eton even before COVID. DC just built a new junior school, so evidently there aren't empty classrooms despite years of above-inflation price rises.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-pay-for-the-privilege/

The recent fee increases at Dulwich College are not connected with its participation in an illegal price fixing cartel - all that behaviour is in the pas. But even through that period of anticompetitive prices rises, the schools didn't suffer a drop-off enrolment due to raising fees.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/the-public-school-maffia-6987085.html

[Rockets]

Dulwich College is not at all like the vast majority of private schools and they will see minimal impact from this. Many of DC's International boarders will likely not be impacted by this, DC is what the government want you to imagine every private school is like - schooling the offspring of world leaders and the super rich.

The same cannot be said for smaller schools like Oakfield, Rosemead or Herne Hill and it is those that are most at risk from this policy and the parents there are not the super rich or the global leaders and elite.

[Rockets]

https://inews.co.uk/news/private-school-parents-attack-labour-vat-closure-3256850

[DuncanW]

I wonder how many private schools close across the UK in an average year...?

Is it none... or do one or two close every year, and the difference being that this year those that do cite the VAT change as one of the reasons...?

 

[Ebenezer]

The VAT increase will only make private education more exclusive - many dual-income families who prioritise their children's education over material possessions will either struggle or to move them to state schools thus taking some school places. What a poor decision by this government.

[Rockets]

And another one - the Eton's of this world won't be impacted it will be the smaller schools that take the hit like this one - the smaller schools whose fees are much lower (£3,400 vs Eton's £16,000) and whose parents don't have the financial means to stretch further and whose margins are much smaller.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxl77njlq8o

[alice]

Sounds like it was operating at half capacity.  Whatever its product was, people weren’t buying it. 

[jazzer]

On 07/09/2024 at 21:51, Ebenezer said:

The VAT increase will only make private education more exclusive - many dual-income families who prioritise their children's education over material possessions will either struggle or to move them to state schools thus taking some school places. What a poor decision by this government.

Isn't it the parents choice to send their children to private schools? And if they decide to make that choice as they do not wish their children to be state educated, then their is a price to pay. Now that the VAT increase will take place they have a choice, either pay the VAT or move the child(ren) to state school.

 

Edited September 10 by jazzer

[Ebenezer]

7 hours ago, jazzer said:

Isn't it the parents choice to send their children to private schools? And if they decide to make that choice as they do not wish their children to be state educated, then their is a price to pay. Now that the VAT increase will take place they have a choice, either pay the VAT or move the child(ren) to state school.

 

I guess that's the plan. Families who can't afford anymore will move their children to state schools. Hopefully, the government will provide additional spaces and recruit more teachers to meet the increased demand. 

[lollol]

Just adding a pinch of humour to this debate as you can see the parents staunchly for excellent state schools they can get into and then pretend their children are disadvantaged vs an independent school! This Labour peer was apparently talking about her daughter being miserable going to Charter North Dulwich!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13850981/Labour-peer-faces-investigation-accused-lying-debate-Keir-Starmers-private-school-VAT-plans.html?ito=fbmessenger_share_article-bottom

[Ben Wile]

The ironic thing is that, instead of fighting for better education for all, we argue about whether taxing private schools is right. It says a lot about what people truly care about.
 

 

[alice]

State schools would be improved tremendously if there were no private schools. The VAT thing is just a step towards that ideal situation

[MissB]

One thing for sure, if the students who are currently in private schools have to move to State schools because their parents can't afford the 20 per cent increase, and those children can't get into the top state schools, then the let's say, average state school will see a massive increase in their GCSE Maths and English attainments and EBacc performance tables.  

Also, private schools have the option of preparing students for iGCSEs which State schools can't, and some believe that iGCEs in some subjects are easier or harder or about the same.  Those students changing over between Years 10-13 will be impacted the most. So I'm assuming parents will ensure, by possibly taking out a loan etc that their children get through their GCSEs and A levels, and those doing GCSEs, can easily get into a top State sixth form if they obtain the right grades.

With what's being done to the pensioners earning over £13k, I don't think there will be a lot of sympathy on this issue.

[FTP]

Hopefully this is the first step towards closing private schools...

Families that can afford private schools could still offer their children tremendous advantages whilst in a state school such as tuition and after school activities. By locking away a small group of wealthy children in a private school away from most others we are creating a far more divided society with a real lack of empathy and understanding about the lives of the vast majority.

 

 

[Rockets]

On 15/09/2024 at 17:53, MissB said:

One thing for sure, if the students who are currently in private schools have to move to State schools because their parents can't afford the 20 per cent increase, and those children can't get into the top state schools, then the let's say, average state school will see a massive increase in their GCSE Maths and English attainments and EBacc performance tables.  

And that's good news for the existing cohort of state school children at those schools how exactly? A sudden influx of kids from the private sector will mean class sizes will grow and the most disadvantaged will lose out - remember a private school child moving to state is a double-whammy as they won't be paying the 20% tax and costing the state more for the state school place they will be occupying.

On 15/09/2024 at 19:14, FTP said:

Hopefully this is the first step towards closing private schools...

Very, very unlikely - far more likely to make them even more elitist as it is the big schools like Eton (which massively skew the perception of private school in the minds of the masses) which will survive. It is the smaller schools that will struggle and many of those are not catering to the types who frequent Eton etc.