Education not taxation - please consider signing this petition!

[lollol]

https://apple.news/AZzzO5gK5SAm0W0w6n0Rs5g
Labour’s private school tax raid could cost the taxpayer £1.6 billion a year. 
 

Just adding a recent article for those that think I only posted one side to the story! Would love others to share articles as much as possible that include independent data sources. 
 

I was also amused with the recent thread of someone asking about renting to get into North Dulwich Charter. Another way of using money to get a better education for their children but it an opaque way! 

[micromacromonkey]

That is a flawed analysis. It's unfortunately light on details but here's a couple of glaring errors:

Firstly it uses the discredited assumption that all possible positive externalities due to the independent school sector are in-scope for any calculation. This is manifestly not true: https://fullfact.org/education/times-front-page-error-independent-schools/

Secondly, I'm guessing that, if surveyed, no parents of kids at independent schools would volunteer that they WANTED to pay more. It's surprising therefore that 'only' 20% of respondents said that they would pull their kids out with the imposition of VAT. Realistically it will be significantly less as people will tighten in other areas rather than disrupt their kids' education. After all school fees have been rising above inflation since the turn of the century:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-charts-that-shows-how-private-school-fees-have-exploded-a7023056.html

This article shows some schools have increased by almost 50% in the last 8 years:

https://exampapersplus.co.uk/most-expensive-schools-in-the-uk/

So it's disingenuous to suggest that parents will pull kids out due to another increase.

 

[lollol]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/09/private-school-vat-state-school-class-size-emily-thornberry/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3w7JsL49tiz5vkpFM-B3kghjXopjWwAZEoQOK0MZm4qzDY_IN14mbHHLQ_aem_AV7RDKrEaib4mNro6xWJhuJwHNO6yRYBczcu452diJ4VBojTgPnBtDQKl_iFNs8ak2H_TGwZ8txmtKanh7mMVeG5

[Jules-and-Boo]

So, numbers may increase in state schools, yet, so will investment

[northernmonkey]

On 18/03/2024 at 03:24, lollol said:

https://apple.news/AZzzO5gK5SAm0W0w6n0Rs5g
Labour’s private school tax raid could cost the taxpayer £1.6 billion a year. 
 

Just adding a recent article for those that think I only posted one side to the story! Would love others to share articles as much as possible that include independent data sources. 
 

I was also amused with the recent thread of someone asking about renting to get into North Dulwich Charter. Another way of using money to get a better education for their children but it an opaque way! 

You might be 'amused' but obviously its something thats enough of a concern that there are specific rules in the entrance criteria to specifically disallow this, so not exactly comparative. 

Aside from the flawed analysis, the idea of so much movement that there is a massive cost to the taxpayer of finding extra schooling is also unlikely.  As I noted upthread, the cost of private school education has increased dramatically in recent years.  Increases in fees over 10% per annum in some cases, so the idea that the application of VAT would drive the majority out just isn't the case.  There will be some who can't afford it any more. But then there are lots of people who couldn't afford it in the first place.

Anyone who has accepted a school place in the last 2-3 years will have known this was Labour's policy, so their kids will be in year 9 by the time Labour gets in.  That would mean that only parents of those with children in years 10/11 likely to have been unaware when signing up.  They can obviously move their children for sixth form if needed.  The others shouldn't be surprised!  Those with children in juniors will need to take a view whether affordable or move to the state sector. 

[micromacromonkey]

The birth rate in the UK has dropped significantly from 1.92 in 2010 to 1.56 in 2021. This has an impact on class sizes in state schools which obviously is magnified as kids born in these years come to school age. Looks like all those thousands of ex-private school kids will actually keep our class sizes at a reasonable level:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/education/london-school-closures-places-pupils-falling-birth-rate-b1158175.html (from 16th May 2024)

Despite the Telegraph's best efforts, this is a non-issue.

Edited June 10 by micromacromonkey
wrong date!

[lollol]

Step in a child’s shoes just for one moment and think what it would be like to have to move schools in the middle of the year away from your friends, teachers, community etc. due to a political stunt. I doubt the money will even go into education. The UK will be become the only European country to tax education.

Primary schools have some capacity where I live but I have enquired and there are currently no places for secondary school where I live.

Again, so easy to be smug and say we should have pre planned a potential outcome 5 years ago when you live in your £2-3m homes next to the best state schools in Dulwich (like Keir Starmer!)

[northernmonkey]

So you don't live in Southwark?   There are primary places in Southwark.  Also if you don't live in Southwark why are you posting on the East Dulwich Forum?

[malumbu]

Love and earlier comment about people living in 2 - 3 million pound houses and having access to great state education, well I moved into the locality when Lordship Lane was described as Poorship Lane, not so long ago.  I was doing some work at a school in Downham, the assend of Lewisham (sorry Downham!) with high levels of social housing,  Fantastic school so please don't equate cost of housing with the quality of state education.  Both Charter and Kingsdale are next to some relatively poor areas, ditto Dog Kennel Hill. 

[Soylent Green]

On 15/06/2024 at 22:54, lollol said:

Step in a child’s shoes just for one moment and think what it would be like to have to move schools in the middle of the year away from your friends, teachers, community etc. due to a political stunt. I doubt the money will even go into education. The UK will be become the only European country to tax education.

Primary schools have some capacity where I live but I have enquired and there are currently no places for secondary school where I live.

Again, so easy to be smug and say we should have pre planned a potential outcome 5 years ago when you live in your £2-3m homes next to the best state schools in Dulwich (like Keir Starmer!)

Yes, that would be hard on a child.  But who would choose to do this?  Surely, you would keep the child in his/her class until the end of the academic year whilst you look for a place at a local school?  What is more,  if the private schools feel that they would lose a substantial number of pupils through passing the VAT on, the sensible thing to do would be to absorb the 20%, or a large part of it.  State schools have been subjected to about 20% cuts in relative funding and they have managed to survive and keep providing a great education, so there is no reason why private schools can't do the same. (In this area, they lost 10% of their income in May's redistribution of the education budget and have since had budget increases of just a couple of percent whilst inflation has been at 10% and staff salary increases of 7% have had to come out of existing budget). 

What this post is about, is a problem with private education businesses shamefully exploiting their customers (ie parents) rather than taking a responsible stance to look after the children they educate - ie profit before pupils. It's so sad that parents have been brainwashed with this 'scare-mongering' that their children will not flourish and succeed in state schools. If they weren't so exploited, they would be more willing to walk and the schools would have to suck up the 20%.  I feel sorry for parents stuck in this dilemma, but they just need to bite the bullet and give state education ago - and enjoy the money they are saving!  

Finally, the comment about other European countries not taxing education conveniently omits to say that private schools are banned in much of Scandinavia, and are in general far less common than over here. 

[Rockets]

Be careful what you wish for and anyone with kids in the state system should be concerned about this too.

The Greeks did this in 2015 with disastrous consequences. The measures negatively impacted the state school system and the policy had to be reversed.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/10/30/greece-reconsiders-a-tax-on-private-education

 

The problem is that the likes of DC, Allen's, JAGs etc will survive (and can probably absorb the costs) but smaller schools will inevitably go under - which is exactly what happened in Greece and that led to a big influx of children into the state system and class sizes grew to breaking point. Teachers from the private system who lost their jobs did not move to state and were lost to education.

There is also the complex issue of exemptions for SEND pupils which is a minefield for the government as there are many SEND children in private without the relevant documentation as it can take years to get.

Additionally,  it is not just private schools that get tax benefits but vocational  courses and even sports clubs so the impact may be much broader.

As the Greeks found to their cost.

 

Edited July 21 by Rockets

[lollol]

23 hours ago, Rockets said:

Be careful what you wish for and anyone with kids in the state system should be concerned about this too.

The Greeks did this in 2015 with disastrous consequences. The measures negatively impacted the state school system and the policy had to be reversed.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/10/30/greece-reconsiders-a-tax-on-private-education

 

The problem is that the likes of DC, Allen's, JAGs etc will survive (and can probably absorb the costs) but smaller schools will inevitably go under - which is exactly what happened in Greece and that led to a big influx of children into the state system and class sizes grew to breaking point. Teachers from the private system who lost their jobs did not move to state and were lost to education.

There is also the complex issue of exemptions for SEND pupils which is a minefield for the government as there are many SEND children in private without the relevant documentation as it can take years to get.

Additionally,  it is not just private schools that get tax benefits but vocational  courses and even sports clubs so the impact may be much broader.

As the Greeks found to their cost.

 

I think this is very valid in that state school families do not feel impacted at the moment by this policy but you may find it does when your children are in classes with 35-40 children, are made to sit on the floor to eat lunch (happy to share a letter from a state school where this is happening), when they take awat certain subjects, when VAT is imposed on anything that seems to ‘advantage’ a child (eg before and after school clubs, paid music lessons etc). I have children in both the independent and state sectors so please don’t say I am not giving state a chance, I have and it failed us for one child. 

Please continue to do your research and keep an open mind about the impacts on State, not just the independent sector will have on children, families and the economy ..

 

On 20/07/2024 at 11:33, Soylent Green said:

Yes, that would be hard on a child.  But who would choose to do this?  Surely, you would keep the child in his/her class until the end of the academic year whilst you look for a place at a local school?  What is more,  if the private schools feel that they would lose a substantial number of pupils through passing the VAT on, the sensible thing to do would be to absorb the 20%, or a large part of it.  State schools have been subjected to about 20% cuts in relative funding and they have managed to survive and keep providing a great education, so there is no reason why private schools can't do the same. (In this area, they lost 10% of their income in May's redistribution of the education budget and have since had budget increases of just a couple of percent whilst inflation has been at 10% and staff salary increases of 7% have had to come out of existing budget). 

What this post is about, is a problem with private education businesses shamefully exploiting their customers (ie parents) rather than taking a responsible stance to look after the children they educate - ie profit before pupils. It's so sad that parents have been brainwashed with this 'scare-mongering' that their children will not flourish and succeed in state schools. If they weren't so exploited, they would be more willing to walk and the schools would have to suck up the 20%.  I feel sorry for parents stuck in this dilemma, but they just need to bite the bullet and give state education ago - and enjoy the money they are saving!  

Finally, the comment about other European countries not taxing education conveniently omits to say that private schools are banned in much of Scandinavia, and are in general far less common than over here. 

Again, please do your research! Many people cite Finland but private schools are not banned there and do exist. 
 
What is banned is basic education for profit. Article below. Also there is a BBC podcast on whether UK schools are eduction for profit and in most cases, profit margins are very low eg 3% and reinvested in the school or to give bursaries / scholarships, for outreach to the local communities.

https://www.aacrao.org/edge/emergent-news/private-education-is-not-prohibited-in-finland

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0021377?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

On 19/06/2024 at 10:50, northernmonkey said:

So you don't live in Southwark?   There are primary places in Southwark.  Also if you don't live in Southwark why are you posting on the East Dulwich Forum?

I live just on the border!

[northernmonkey]

So if you live 'just on the border' you'd be eligible for Southwark schools - where there are places.  I understand that you're unhappy about the potential VAT being applied, but the attempts at misinformation on this thread have been dreadful. 

Factually - there aren't a shortage of school places in the state sector locally - although they might not be in the school you would want.   You're still trying to scaremonger with your 30-40 kids in a class and sitting on the floor comments, whereas in reality several local schools are undersubscribed and consultations have taken place about closing some provision. 

Its also true that the increase in fees has been in the region of 10% for each of the last few years in private schools locally.  There has been no mass exodus.   Some people will have exited, some will continue to do so if VAT is applied, but there are many many more who couldn't pay the fees in the first place so it doesn't feel like the 'smoking gun' that is being claimed here. 

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, northernmonkey said:

Factually - there aren't a shortage of school places in the state sector locally - although they might not be in the school you would want. 

But what age groups though? The pupil shortage is affecting the primary sector - all of the schools closing locally are primary and, in fact, a Southwark report on the issue cites a significant fall in birth rates between 2010 and 2020 as one of the main causes of the problem (see paras 14 to 21 in the attached):

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s114684/Report Mitigating falling pupil numbers in schools.pdf

 

There are a very limited secondary school places - it is one of the reasons Charter East was built. And it will take at least 5-10 years for the fall in primary pupils to have a big impact on secondary.

 

This is an utterly misguided policy that has a very high chance of backfiring spectacularly and making some private schools even more elitist (Dulwich College had aspirations to have 50% of their pupils from state on bursaries but one wonders whether they can pursue this now and we know people with children at some of the most elitist private schools in the country who have pre-paid for their children's education and thus will avoid the VAT), closing down of many the smaller private schools, putting an increased burden on the tax-payer and ultimately impacting everyone's education negatively. Never mind the impact on nursery provision, vocational and college, academy or university courses or schools that are focussed on faith, disabilities or SEND - all of which are currently VAT free but are considered "private education".

 

Ask the Greeks how it went for them - the left-wing dog whistle they blew backfired spectacularly and it was the very people they were trying to help who took the brunt of the fallout as the state system was over-run. Within two years it was reversed.

 

Here's another article that cuts through some of the noise and lays out how complex this is going to be for the government and what a minefield it is for them: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/business-tax/labours-private-school-fees-pledge-requires-lesson-in-vat

[northernmonkey]

Actually the last significant bulge year is now going into year 10  - there are continually places in secondary in Southwark.  Again this doesn't mean there are places at Charter North or East or Kingsdale, but there are often places at Elm Green, Deptford Green and some of the Harris academies locally. 

The VAT issue is complex and won't be as straightforward as a 20% hike, but if posters could stop with the hyperbole around classes of 40 and kids sitting on the floor that would be helpful. 

[Ben Wile]

Comparisons to the Greek situation are incorrect because the policy would affect far more than just private schools. In Greece, private schools are attended primarily by the upper middle class and wealthy individuals. However, the policy was quickly reversed—within two months— due to widespread opposition as the number of people it would affect was far greater.

The majority of Greek schoolchildren attend extracurricular private schools in the afternoons during the last one or two years of high school, in addition to public schools. This is because the final high school exams, crucial for higher education admission, require more preparation than what public schools provide. This policy would impact all forms of private education, including conservatories, vocational institutes, and foreign language schools (which nearly all Greek schoolchildren attend). Consequently, its impact would be widespread, affecting most of Greek people who had already endured significant hardship during the crisis.
 

In contrast, the policy here concerns only private schools. I believe this tax hike is reasonable unless a better way to generate funds can be found after the catastrophic years of Tory governance.

[Rockets]

1 hour ago, Ben Wile said:

Comparisons to the Greek situation are incorrect because the policy would affect far more than just private schools. In Greece, private schools are attended primarily by the upper middle class and wealthy individuals. However, the policy was quickly reversed—within two months— due to widespread opposition as the number of people it would affect was far greater.

Not sure where you are getting your info from but below is the Economist article from 2015 that highlights what actually happened in Greece - the similarities with the UK are clear. As the article I linked to in a previous post highlights - it is going to be very difficult for the government to be VAT prejudicial against private schools without dragging a whole load of other VAT-exempt private education establishments (nurseries, academies, sports clubs, universities, SEND schools, Faith schools etc) into the mess. VAT law is incredibly complicated and nuanced...as the Tories found out to their cost during the pasty-tax saga!

Additionally, Starmer got himself into a bit of a pickle ahead of the election by declaring that anyone with an ECHP at private school would be exempt from the VAT. But the ECHP system is cumbersome, incredibly slow and massively flawed and a large percentage of children who have SEND issues at private schools (and are often funded by local authorities because they cannot be taught in the state system) do not have ECHPs. 

And there are more challenges and complications ahead...

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/nine-reasons-taxing-private-school-fees-not-straightforward-3158472

 

Unfortunately soundbites, ideology and left-wing dog whistles won't unravel the potential mess this could create.....as the Greeks found to their cost...read below...

 

https://www.economist.com/europe/2015/10/30/greece-reconsiders-a-tax-on-private-education

BEFORE Greece’s snap elections in September, the outgoing left-wing government laid out plans for a value-added tax of 23% on private education. The measure, dreamed up by the governing Syriza party as an alternative to raising tax on beef, featured in their manifesto as a blow against plutocracy. It looked like a double win that would simultaneously please creditors and demonstrate the government’s commitment to helping the underprivileged. Unsurprisingly, it did neither.

Some of the country’s reasonably priced private schools were forced to close, leaving staff jobless. Elsewhere, fees rose. Those affected were not just rich families. Greece has more than 300 full-time private schools, attended by about 6% of school-age children, many of whom come from middle- and lower-income families. With tuition fees as low as €2,500 ($2,750) a year, some operate in working-class areas and attract parents who are keen to give their children a leg up.

Those whose parents were unable to pay higher fees moved into the already overwhelmed state system. At the beginning of term in September, Greek schools were short of some 12,000 teachers, according to the ministry of education. Some predict the shortfall will soon exceed 20,000.

The tax was imposed on almost all types of private educational establishments, including language and music schools and technical colleges. It even applies to evening schools, which are a huge social phenomenon in Greece and an integral part of the education system. Full-time private education is a minority choice, but for hundreds of thousands of Greeks, evening schools (known by the ancient Greek name of frontisterion) have served as an indispensable supplement to state schooling. For low-paid teachers in the state sector, these schools are a way to boost their monthly income, and for countless pupils they have served as a vital gateway for university entrance exams.

The country’s 9,000 language and evening schools employ more than 80,000 teaching and administrative staff. In the new climate, “lay-offs are inevitable, but so is tax avoidance,” says Christos Georgousopoulos, owner of Diakrotima, an evening school in the town of Lamia. Charging lower prices under the table, or employing uninsured staff may become more widespread.

The general mayhem caused by the tax is forcing the government to reconsider. Indeed, Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister, had already thought better of the move before the recent election and promised to reverse it. But that has proved difficult: the deadline for the government to find an alternative revenue-raising measure passed on October 23rd, putting the 23% VAT rate into automatic effect. A new deadline has been set for November. The government is reported to be scrapping the idea of taxing private tuition and imposing higher road taxes instead.

As in so many areas of Greek life, the dispute has highlighted a gap between theory and practice. There is a strong ideological antipathy in Greece to the idea of education as a profitable enterprise. In deference to that ideology, state universities, which account for most higher education, offer free tuition. Private campuses exist, but the degrees they offer are not recognised by the state.

But a gap between ideology and real life is something with which many Greeks seem to live quite contentedly. Take Mr Tsipras: despite his professed admiration for state provision, he has enrolled his son in a well-known Athenian private school.

[Ben Wile]

I’m Greek, and I get my information directly from Greek media. I couldn't access the Economist article, but it doesn't seem very different from what I mentioned, apart from their ideological angle—and thanks for adding the actual text. If the government involves other private educational institutions, the situation will become more complicated indeed. However, I don't think it can be compared to the Greek situation for the reasons I mentioned and those in the Economist article—which I find prejudiced and patronising, if not racist: "But a gap between ideology and real life is something with which many Greeks seem to live quite contented".

Regarding the Economist's information, I'm not sure how many private schools closed, as the Economist claims, since the law only lasted for two months. I definitely know of one school in Piraeus called Michalopouleio, but given the law's brief duration, it can't be the sole reason. 

Tsipras sending his sons to a private school does create an ethical problem. However, asking him to send his sons to a public school, when public education has been chronically neglected by right-wing governments, is similar to asking leftists to give away all their money. 

Additionally, the right-wing government has recently introduced legislation that allows private colleges and universities this year, so there's no “problem” there anymore.

Edited July 27 by Ben Wile

[Rockets]

On 26/07/2024 at 21:22, Ben Wile said:

Tsipras sending his sons to a private school does create an ethical problem.

It was downright hypocrisy and that is what the Economist journalist is highlighting with his comment about the gap between real life and ideology. He is setting up for his punchline about Mr Tsipras and it is a bit of a stretch to suggest the Economist is racist and akin to The Daily Mail in it's coverage!

 

The journalist makes a very salient point about the gap between ideology and real life and this is what the Labour party are finding now on this policy. It's all well and good dog-whistling to the left by creating the impression that anyone who goes to private school is akin to a Bullingdon Club toff and lean-in on the Class War/Eat The Rich narrative. But real life is very different, despite what the likes of our own Cllr McAsh (an advocate to abolish private schools completely) thinks: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-conference-abolish-eton-private-schools-boris-johnson-a9113156.html

 

Granted, there are schools with very, very rich pupils but also many schools that are filled full of the children of "working people" who only want the best for their children (it is interesting, ahem, to note how some of the most left-leaning Labour MPs have seemingly also wanted for their children) - and it is the smaller schools that will be impacted by this. For every Dulwich College, Alleyn's and JAG's there are a host of much smaller Rosemead's, Oakfield's and Herne Hill's - where the margins are much smaller and the parents very much "working people".

 

The Greece example shows just how difficult this is to do and how sometimes pragmatism needs to rule over ideology because very often decisions driven by ideology don't work out well at all. Even Emily Thornberry, in the run-up to the election, acknowledged this could lead to an increase in class sizes in state schools.

[Rockets]

Wow...the government have just announced they will apply it from Jan 1st, which just about everyone thought would not happen due to the disruption caused by doing it midway through an academic year.

[DuncanW]

Presumably that's just a date to implement so it's payable on all spend thereafter. So would not apply to fees paid upfront for school year 24/25 if paid upfront. Appreciate that not everyone does this but would imagine that most do.

That's just my interpretation, anyway.

[Ella Menopee]

No, it’s been made clear that it will apply to fee payments for the terms from the 1st of Jan onwards. So if you pay in Sept for the whole year, terms 2 and 3 will still attract VAT. Only long term genuine pay in advance programmes where the payment was made before 29 July will not attract VAT. 

[DuncanW]

Okay, thank you for clarifying 👍

[Rockets]

Yes they put in a special anti-forestalling clause to prevent people pre-paying that came into force yesterday.

Friends of ours live in Beckenham and the local state schools are preparing to increase class sizes by, initially, two to accommodate those potentially leaving the private sector.

[Ben Wile]

Public education in Greece is in deep crisis, and it cannot be compared to the UK one: https://www.tovima.com/stories/greek-education-system-in-crisis-infrastructure-gaps-underfunding. It is not hypocrisy, as he didn't try to shut down private schools, but increase the taxation. He would be a downright fool to send his school to a public school if he has the money to send them to a private school. Furthermore, during his premiership, he demonstrated a commitment to improving public education, though his efforts were constrained by austerity measures. 

The term "working people" is somewhat vague, as nearly everyone is part of the workforce. To be more specific, we need to clarify which fees we are discussing and which segments of "working people" can afford them. Let's consider a practical example: the fees at Rosemead for children Year 3-6 are approximately £15,000-£16,000 per year. For a family with two children, this amounts to around £30,000 annually, just until year 6. What kind of salaries can support these expenses? The working people I know certainly cannot afford this. While a fee increase from £15,000 to £18,000 is significant, it is not an astronomical jump. Additionally, the revenue generated from taxing private education would benefit all students, potentially improving public schools for everyone. Although this taxation might pressure public schools as some private school students may move to public schools, the majority—93%—of students already attend public schools and would benefit from the increased funding.

Left-leaning people can still send their children to private schools while supporting public education. They advocate for public education to be as good as private education. Currently, it is not. Your argument is similar to suggesting that leftists should give away all their money, which is not a valid argument. 

 

Edited July 30 by Ben Wile