Education not taxation - please consider signing this petition!

[lollol]

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?redirect=false

Edited June 9 by lollol
Better title

[tiddles]

lots of dual income working parents have no chance of affording school fees........

[airellemarie]

I'm glad someone else commented on this post. Sorry but I'm not going to sign the petition, plenty of great state schools around. 

[jazzer]

Can I suggest that you actually explain what the petition is about rather than being well sloppy and putting an unclear description in the heading, no explanation and a  link that you expect people to open and read through. 

Edited January 23 by jazzer

[Jules-and-Boo]

It’s a petition to stop the government adding vat onto school fees, which means that some families who can afford fees without vat would not be able to afford the fees with vat, and is it fair that vat is charged on school fees

[airellemarie]

Yes it is fair – there are plenty of non-fee paying schools. So going to a fee-paying school is always a choice. Whereas paying nursery fees or rent is often not a choice (ie you need childcare to work, and you need a roof over your head). 

Also this is a petition about a law that a potential incoming government has written, but they have not even been elected yet. 

 

 

[Suggsy]

On this topic, at least two (likely three) of the local schools have framed the issue in a way that I feel is misleading:

"If VAT is added to school fees, schools must, by law, pass this on to parents as VAT is a tax on the consumer and not the business."

Should they not be saying that by law the VAT must be paid by the school to the government? There may be schools that cannot contemplate absorbing the cost and need to pass the full 20% on to parents, but that's a different matter.

Any thoughts welcome...

[jazzer]

1 hour ago, airellemarie said:

Yes it is fair – there are plenty of non-fee paying schools. So going to a fee-paying school is always a choice. Whereas paying nursery fees or rent is often not a choice (ie you need childcare to work, and you need a roof over your head). 

Also this is a petition about a law that a potential incoming government has written, but they have not even been elected yet. 

 

 

Exactly, hit the nail bang on the head

[alice]

Yes it’s a fair tax. A step in the right direction. 

[Jules-and-Boo]

Why is it fair? Is adding a tax that will affect children’s education necessary? Are there not more obvious choices to go after for tax?

perhaps it would be more fair that children who would otherwise have to move schools, to be an exception, but applicable to all new pupils 

[Dulwich dweller]

On 15/01/2024 at 19:36, lollol said:

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?redirect=false

It is incorrect for Mr Perry to say state schools in London are already overcrowded. It seems to be quite the opposite  according to numerous media outlets that are reporting pupil numbers in London have plummeted.

I suggest coming back with the petition when the party proposing the tax are actually in a position of power to do so. As it stands labour are not forcing kids to change schools. Therefore i cannot sign a petition that is highly misleading.

[northernmonkey]

Interesting that the 20% VAT increase is a problem but the 10% plus year on year fee increases that have been happening at schools like Alleyn's since the pandemic aren't...  in reality 20% VAT is the equivalent of paying 1 extra year of fees or so over the whole of secondary education.  Its a drop in the ocean compared to the overall amount you've signed up for.

[lollol]

I shouldn’t have posted this on the ED Forum. Of course if you live in a £2-3m house next to the state Dulwich schools, you have the top state schools at your doorstep! It’s a bit like Labour politicians who put their kids in state schools but they are the best ones in the country. We opted for a smaller cheaper house outside of Dulwich to afford school fees as our local state school was failing our child. We pay taxes which includes an item for education - we don’t take up a state school place (other countries actually give you a tax deduction when you don’t take up a school place!) I am allowed to voice my opinion that it is not fair that VAT will be forced on school fees within a few months if Labour get elected  (interesting … no VAT on nursery or university fees or tutors / private tuition companies). You know … those tuition companies that people use to get their kids into grammar schools (pay money to get their kids ahead to get a state school place!)

 

On 23/01/2024 at 11:01, airellemarie said:

I'm glad someone else commented on this post. Sorry but I'm not going to sign the petition, plenty of great state schools around. 

I’d love to get a list of these great state schools you are talking about that are not oversubscribed or require a banker’s salary! Unless you say we should rent and cheat the system or live in a 1 bed flat?

On 23/01/2024 at 12:18, jazzer said:

Can I suggest that you actually explain what the petition is about rather than being well sloppy and putting an unclear description in the heading, no explanation and a  link that you expect people to open and read through. 

I would expect anyone to read a petition’s manifesto before signing .. also note the ‘please consider signing’ Not bullying or forcing anyone to sign it! 

[Cheese Board]

I hope the 20% vat goes directly to the horrendously underfunded state schools and state funded nurserys. Boy do they need the money!

The Conservative government has destroyed schools and the NHS by underfunding them for too long

[Jules-and-Boo]

so - lollol is concerned that the state schools are not of adequate standard so has chosen private education.

The state school funding was cut by the conservatives.

Labour are looking to add VAT to private fees and have pledged to invest billions in state schools (by increasing corporation tax).

Yet, the OP is opposed to Labour for the VAT on fees? despite the pledged improvement to state schools? and by default  therefore supporting the continual decline of state education by the tories? hence making the problem worse than it already is?

I'm all for increasing VAT and improving state schools. I won't be supporting the short sighted petition.

[jazzer]

Question. how does it "force kids to change schools"?

And why don't you change the title of this thread to the title of Your petition, which surprisingly is doing very well to

"Stop Labour from adding 20% VAT to private school fees and forcing kids to change schools".?

Edited February 5 by jazzer

[micromacromonkey]

Schools round here are excellent, by and large. Your kids will get a great education in a state school. Our daughter is at Harris Girls (OFSTED Outstanding Jan 2024) and we love it.

If you want to buy your kids a backdoor into the civil service, finance or other old boys' networks (which I'm not saying is necessarily a terrible thing) then you are welcome to do so but that type of service is definitely something that should be taxed. After all if there's no Value Add what's the point?

Edited February 5 by micromacromonkey
I can't spell

[Tinkerbellionx_]

For those being quite pointy in their responses to this post merely asking for signatures to support the addition of VAT to a service that they use, consider that the parents who pay for school fees are not using the resources of those at state schools. The state is not paying for their children to be educated, the children are not taking spaces in the classrooms. This takes the burden of the state. It costs a lot more than the 20% VAT to educate a child in the state sector. Also, please be kind! This is a community group, not some vitriolic social media platform! 

[micromacromonkey]

The fact that the current economy of private schools is built on tax avoidance is the concern here. Labour are rightly closing the loophole.

It is beyond doubt that earnings potential of privately educated kids is higher than state kids (on average), but why should that be delivered within a charity model? Certainly in our area kids get educated by the state pretty well, so the thing you are paying for is actually a salary uplift in their adult life. It's hard to see how that kind of service is not VAT-able.

The supposed 'cost saving' to the state due to privately educated kids not using state resources is ~3.5bn. VAT on ~10bn school fees will raise ~1.7bn. Realistically, say this causes 10% of kids to exit the private school system. The government spends an extra 350m on educating them, plus it loses 170m from the tax take. So it's still net positive by 1bn+ for the country (and net positive for all the ski resorts where the parents can spent the cash they saved).

[tiddles]

.

Edited February 20 by tiddles
No valid point to add

[dreamaholic]

On 03/02/2024 at 18:32, lollol said:

I shouldn’t have posted this on the ED Forum. Of course if you live in a £2-3m house next to the state Dulwich schools, you have the top state schools at your doorstep! It’s a bit like Labour politicians who put their kids in state schools but they are the best ones in the country. We opted for a smaller cheaper house outside of Dulwich to afford school fees as our local state school was failing our child. We pay taxes which includes an item for education - we don’t take up a state school place (other countries actually give you a tax deduction when you don’t take up a school place!) I am allowed to voice my opinion that it is not fair that VAT will be forced on school fees within a few months if Labour get elected  (interesting … no VAT on nursery or university fees or tutors / private tuition companies). You know … those tuition companies that people use to get their kids into grammar schools (pay money to get their kids ahead to get a state school place!)

 

I’d love to get a list of these great state schools you are talking about that are not oversubscribed or require a banker’s salary! Unless you say we should rent and cheat the system or live in a 1 bed flat?

I would expect anyone to read a petition’s manifesto before signing .. also note the ‘please consider signing’ Not bullying or forcing anyone to sign it! 

I completely agree with you and have signed the petition. Introducing VAT to school fees will not impact the super wealthy, but those who work hard and try to save pennies here and there to afford the school fees. 
 

Imagine if 20% of current private school students can no longer afford to go to private schools and have to go to state schools, will the state schools be able to cope with the extra students?  Say currently you need to live within 1km to be within catchment of your desired state school, that could be reduced to 600m. Just THINK about the potential consequences… 

[lollol]

On 19/02/2024 at 13:48, micromacromonkey said:

The fact that the current economy of private schools is built on tax avoidance is the concern here. Labour are rightly closing the loophole.

It is beyond doubt that earnings potential of privately educated kids is higher than state kids (on average), but why should that be delivered within a charity model? Certainly in our area kids get educated by the state pretty well, so the thing you are paying for is actually a salary uplift in their adult life. It's hard to see how that kind of service is not VAT-able.

The supposed 'cost saving' to the state due to privately educated kids not using state resources is ~3.5bn. VAT on ~10bn school fees will raise ~1.7bn. Realistically, say this causes 10% of kids to exit the private school system. The government spends an extra 350m on educating them, plus it loses 170m from the tax take. So it's still net positive by 1bn+ for the country (and net positive for all the ski resorts where the parents can spent the cash they saved).

I love the ‘parents save cash to spend on ski resorts’ I save my cash for my child’s education! 

[tomskip]

It's a strange thread heading for sure. There are thousands of dual income hard-working families locally! Most of them aren't in a position to pay private school fees. Of course a 20% cost uplift is going to be hard for many private school parents, but the real question is - why is a private education in a weird loophole of not being seen as discretionary spending? As adults we pay VAT on clothing, heating, fuel, furniture, most purchases other than some foods. So private school fees being VAT exempt seems extraordinary.

 

 

[micromacromonkey]

On 01/03/2024 at 22:04, dreamaholic said:

Imagine if 20% of current private school students can no longer afford to go to private schools and have to go to state schools, will the state schools be able to cope with the extra students?  Say currently you need to live within 1km to be within catchment of your desired state school, that could be reduced to 600m. Just THINK about the potential consequences… 

I already addressed the implications of this above, and that doesn't even include the cohort who could afford to pay but their kids didn't get into their chosen private school for whatever reason (I can think of a couple of friends who are in this position). The schools will find takers for the places, or they'll reduce their fees until they do. Supply and demand will ensure that.

[malumbu]

I thought from the title this was about child benefit, which is wrongly based on the highest of either parent's salaries rather than the joint salary.  You get situations where one parent is over the threshold, but two parents both just below could be significantly better off, but still receiving full child allowance. Never understood the logic