Should cyclists have the same speed restrictions as motor vehicles?

[Earl Aelfheah]

This makes no sense. Why would regulation of e-bikes have to include push bikes?

I don’t agree that you can’t separate control of illegal electric motorbikes from pedal assist e-bikes either.

There has been almost no effort to stop the sale of illegal electric motorbikes in the UK, or to force registration / licensing at point of sale.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

I think we are discussing two different things; the first is enforcing legislation for dangerous/ careless cycling behaviour (already agreed and discussed); the second to apply 20mph locally (bye laws)  to all bicycles whether e-bike or not, with much stiffer penalties for anything pulled over for exceeding 20mph in a spot check, and subsequently found to be an illegally souped up e-bike.

You are also talking about halting sale of illegal e-bikes at source? I believe the issue is that when sold they come with limiters and are therefore legal, only afterwards are they altered/retro-fitted. I think this was all addressed in a Panorama on e-bikes.

[Earl Aelfheah]

8 minutes ago, first mate said:

I think we are discussing two different things; the first is enforcing legislation for dangerous/ careless cycling behaviour (already agreed and discussed); the second to apply 20mph locally (bye laws)  to all bicycles whether e-bike or not, with much stiffer penalties for anything pulled over for exceeding 20mph in a spot check, and subsequently found to be an illegally souped up e-bike.

You are also talking about halting sale of illegal e-bikes at source? I believe the issue is that when sold they come with limiters and are therefore legal, only afterwards are they altered/retro-fitted. I think this was all addressed in a Panorama on e-bikes.

We shouldn’t be allowing the sale of mod kits. And electric motorbikes, sold with a throttle, should be registered and licenced at point of sale. This is a whole other topic, which probably merits its own thread, but I don’t think it’s helpful to conflate motorbikes and push bikes.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Love that you call them electric motorbikes. Come on Earl, some look like legal e-bikes, that is the point isn't it? It is a very slippery slope.

A whole can of worms is being opened up by the advent of the e-bike and we need to wake up and address growing issues before it is too late.

Legislating against mod kits is super tricky and it may be easier to adopt my route. I am open to persuasion though.

[Earl Aelfheah]

38 minutes ago, first mate said:

Glad you agree there is a difference in cycling culture over here. I think we all know the reasons why that may

Yes, The Netherlands have of pursued radical policies over decades to increase cycling and to remove motor traffic from many areas (not without opposition). The types of interventions which we are only seriously starting to implement here now, like segregated bike lanes, pedestrianisation, road filters etc. 

4 minutes ago, first mate said:

Love that you call them electric motorbikes

A bike which is has a throttle and is powered by a motor is a motorbike. It is not the same as a pedal assist e-bike.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Unfortunately, time is not on our side. The e-bike has landed and is creating all sorts of issues that might not have occurred if we only had push bikes heading the UK cycling revolution.

[Earl Aelfheah]

But it is not helpful to conflate legal, pedal assist e-bikes and illegal, unregistered electric motorbikes.

They are different issues.

It is definitely nit helpful to bundle them in with push bikes.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Just to make the point that the water is very muddied read this review on the range of e-bikes on offer https://e-bikereview.uk/how-fast/

Seems even pedal assist can be tweaked up. Nowhere are any of these described as electric scooters or motorbikes. Perception is all.

[Earl Aelfheah]

12 minutes ago, first mate said:

Legislating against mod kits is super tricky

Tbf this may not be the answer specifically. I just don’t think it’s that difficult to pull over electric motorbikes which are clearly being driven using a throttle and which are already illegal. They should be confiscated and those riding them fined. 

Same goes for pedal assist where they’re clearly travelling at speeds in excess of 15.5 mph / have been modified. Police can pull people over and confiscate them. I don’t see how it’s a case of additional laws helping, when we’re not remotely using the powers that already exist / enforcing current regulations.

[first mate]

Think it is about clarity. I disagree it is really easy to distinguish between all the types of bike. The only way to do that would be to run stops on different e-bikes to check them out. Surely, if you are going to run stops it makes sense to do them for cycling behaviour that presents a risk, rather than checking technology? Moreover, if you are prepared to have cyclists pulled over for travelling in excess of 15.5mph, why not 20mph, surely all the same caveats apply?

[Earl Aelfheah]

35 minutes ago, first mate said:

if you are prepared to have cyclists pulled over for travelling in excess of 15.5mph, why not 20mph, surely all the same caveats apply?

Where there is reasonable suspicion that an e-bike has been modified / is illegal, one should attempt to enforce the law (I don't think this is a controversial view).

35 minutes ago, first mate said:

Think it is about clarity. I disagree it is really easy to distinguish between all the types of bike

Really? I think it's pretty easy to spot a throttle operated bike with an electric motor, travelling at speed, without anyone pedalling. It's very easy to distinguish between these e-powered motorbikes and a push bike.  

For example. If I were a police officer and saw this, travelling at high speed, I might reasonably pull it over, and would likely impound it:

I don't believe I would think - "that might be a push bike, or a legal pedal assist bike, I am powerless to make any enquiries"

This is born out by the fact that nearly a thousand illegal e-bikes and e-motorcycles were confiscated by police last year. So it clearly is possible. I would, however, question how easy it is to buy them unregistered.

If you want to call for all vehicles sold o the UK which are not road legal to require registration, I would 100% support it. 

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

To be fair Earl you can't see if it has a throttle from that picture and if it is only 250w it is considered an e-bike. This is the problem - you can buy kits that propel bikes at 60/70mph which are very difficult to tell apart from legal ones - some even come with a keyfob to derate them to within the legal limits.

The law has, as usual, not kept up with technological developments and, as car drivers have to with bad drivers, all cyclists may have to be policed on the basis of the few who ruin it for everyone else.

[snowy]

45 minutes ago, Rockets said:

To be fair Earl you can't see if it has a throttle from that picture and if it is only 250w it is considered an e-bike. This is the problem - you can buy kits that propel bikes at 60/70mph which are very difficult to tell apart from legal ones - some even come with a keyfob to derate them to within the legal limits.

The law has, as usual, not kept up with technological developments and, as car drivers have to with bad drivers, all cyclists may have to be policed on the basis of the few who ruin it for everyone else.

You seem to have missed this bit of the post you are replying to:

"bike with an electric motor, travelling at speed, without anyone pedalling" 

Which is normally how the police identify them

[first mate]

So some of you now seem to be arguing that it is possible for police to pull over someone cycling at speed, if they can simultaneously note they are not pedalling at that moment and can see they are using a throttle, but if they are just exceeding a speed limit ( say 20mph) it would be difficult, if not impossible, for them to do the same?

[Earl Aelfheah]

22 minutes ago, first mate said:

So some of you now seem to be arguing that it is possible for police to pull over someone cycling at speed, if they can simultaneously note they are not pedalling at that moment and can see they are using a throttle, but if they are just exceeding a speed limit ( say 20mph) it would be difficult, if not impossible, for them to do the same?

Police can and do pull over cyclists that are behaving dangerously and can charge people with careless or furious cycling if they are judged to be riding too fast for the conditions.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Fine so applying 20 mph should not be a problem.

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 hour ago, first mate said:

So some of you now seem to be arguing that it is possible for police to pull over someone cycling at speed, if they can simultaneously note they are not pedalling at that moment and can see they are using a throttle, but if they are just exceeding a speed limit ( say 20mph) it would be difficult, if not impossible, for them to do the same?

I'm arguing that it's possible to pull someone over who is clearly using a vehicle that is not road legal (around a 1,000 illegal electric bikes and motorbikes confiscated last year)

It is also well within current powers for police to pull over and charge people who are behaving dangerously on a bicycle, or a horse for that matter; the issues around applying a specific speed limit to either have already been explained.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, snowy said:

"bike with an electric motor, travelling at speed, without anyone pedalling" 

But it has pedals....when I cycle there are periods when I don't pedal.....there are some that look like motorbikes (are they Surron bikes?) but they have no pedals.

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

charge people with careless or furious cycling if they are judged to be riding too fast for the conditions.

It's careless and wanton driving not cycling and I do not think that can be used for speed as speeds do not apply to cycles. And it is very difficult for police to determine what is legal or not as the kits are sold to disguise the ability to go faster than 15.5mph and most are designed to be added to standard pedal cycles.

Edited January 22 by Rockets

[snowy]

You are really dreadfully uninformed in this aren't you? 
"Wanton or furious cycling’ is a criminal offence under section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 s1(2)) 

Careless cycling is defined in existing uk legislation 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/I/crossheading/cycling-offences-and-cycle-racing

Both apply to cyclists where the police deem their speed to be irresponsible. Both can be applied today and have been available to the police for a long time. 

[Rockets]

51 minutes ago, snowy said:

You are really dreadfully uninformed in this aren't you? 
"Wanton or furious cycling’ is a criminal offence under section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 s1(2)) 

Are you absolutely sure Snowy.....? 

 

BTW I never saw your evidence regarding the Hilda Griffiths case you promised after you made your accusations against me. Did you find anything?

Edited January 22 by Rockets

[first mate]

Except existing legislation was not sufficient and, allegedly, too vague, to deliver a sentence for manslaughter where a cyclist ran into someone crossing the road, and where they later died.

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 minutes ago, first mate said:

Except existing legislation was not sufficient and, allegedly, too vague, to deliver a sentence for manslaughter where a cyclist ran into someone crossing the road, and where they later died.

Because the inquiry found the cyclist not to be at fault. You probably have more of the facts available to you than the judge though

[Rockets]

Earl if you are referring to the Hilda Griffiths case then I am sure Snowy will put us all to rights but speed was a factor - the cyclist could not be prosecuted by police because, as the cyclist said themselves in the coroner's court (as well as the police), the speed limit does not apply to cycles. If he had been driving a car though and breaking the speed limit surely he would have been charged whether it was his fault or not because he would have been breaking the law with his speed. 

 

Edited January 22 by Rockets

[Earl Aelfheah]

30 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Are you absolutely sure Snowy.....?

@Rockets Snowy has linked you to the legislation. Instead of doubling down, perhaps just accept a mistake for once. No one will judge you for an error, but I will judge you for continuing to push things after you know them to be wrong.

10 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Earl if you are referring to the Hilda Griffiths case

I’m not, but assume this is what first mate is referring to. You know my views on speculating on a specific tragedy and questioning the verdict of the inquiry.

Edited January 22 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

17 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

@Rockets Snowy has linked you to the legislation. Instead of doubling down, perhaps just accept a mistake for once. No one will judge you for an error, but I will judge you for continuing to push things after you know them to be wrong.

Ok so how come Charlie Alliston got charged and found guilty of "wanton or furious driving"? He was on an bike.