Should cyclists have the same speed restrictions as motor vehicles?

[Earl Aelfheah]

On 08/12/2023 at 17:11, Rockets said:

Now you're making things up....deary, deary me...very troll-like behaviour. 

The only bits on this thread where I can see you remotely answer the question are when you say:

Quote

...if the speed limit of a road is 20 mph it should be for anything using it - that's just common sense

We've already established that the speed limit is for motor vehicles. This is not an explanation as to why you think the same rules that apply to motor vehicles should also apply to horses, bicycles, etc. Unless you seriously think you've answered the question by saying "common sense".

Quote

they still pose danger don't' they... are they danger-free?

Is this perhaps your reason? If so, what other activities that are not danger free, do you think should be regulated as if they were an HGV?

Quote

I just want cyclists to follow the rules of the road

We all do. But you don't want people travelling by bicycle to follow the rules of the road, you want them to follow the rules that apply to motor vehicles.

If I've missed where you have answered the question elsewhere, please enlighten me. To remind you, it's:

Why, when you don't approve of a 20mph speed limit for motor vehicles in Southwark (the subject of the thread) you are calling for a new 20 mph speed limit for people travelling on a bicycle.?

 

There are around 30,000 serious injuries and deaths involving motor vehicles each year. A person is around five times more likely to be killed when hit by a vehicle travelling at around 30mph than they are from a vehicle travelling around 20mph. To those who have lost people in road accidents, I assure you it is a subject that they feel both exorcised about, and consider to be a pressing matter. The fact that people think that it's a trifling matter and would try and minimise the impact by drawing false equivalence to push bikes, is exactly the problem.

I think we can see who has tried to cause a 'heated debate' and derailed the thread, by both opposing the 20 mph limit for cars, whilst simultaneously calling for a new 20 mph speed limit for people travelling on bicycles. 

[Rockets]

9 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Is this perhaps your reason? If so, what other activities that are not danger free, do you think should be regulated as if they were an HGV?

Nope but by your reckoning we should all be happy to be hit by a bike and be thankful that its kinetic energy is not that of a car....

 

11 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

We all do. But you don't want people travelling by bicycle to follow the rules of the road, you want them to follow the rules that apply to motor vehicles.

No I want them to follow the rules of the road becaise they are on the road...you know like red lights and stuff like that! You have yet to tell me why you think the rules should not apply to them (except for your kinetic energy nonsense).

 

12 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Why, when you don't approve of a 20mph speed limit for motor vehicles in Southwark (the subject of the thread) you are calling for a new 20 mph speed limit for people travelling on a bicycle.?

 

Again you are making things up. Where did I say that? Let me explain and spell it out for you as you seem to be struggling with clear messaging...what I said was that blanket area-wide 20mph limits are nonsense, that some roads are perfectly good as 30mph roads. The A205 is a very good example of this - do you think that should be 20mph? I asked you whether you agreed with the 20mph limit for all 30 mph roads in Wales...did you respond? Nope.

 

21 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

This is not an explanation as to why you think the same rules should apply to horses, bicycles, etc.

Because I don't want to be hit by anything at 20mph. What's the kinetic energy of a horse travelling at 20 mph and where does it sit on your league table...;-)

Could you also concede perhaps that there are problems with retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph in London (popular amongst some delivery drivers) and that apply the 20 mph limit to bikes would help combat that? Go on, try to agree with me on something....;-)

[Earl Aelfheah]

1 minute ago, Rockets said:

I asked you whether you agreed with the 20mph limit for all 30 mph roads in Wales...did you respond? Nope.

Thank you. Yes, I did miss this question. There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas. This can be varied by the local authority where they feel it's appropriate. In other words, the presumption is that 20mph is more appropriate in built up areas. And yes I agree with this. I assume you don't?

4 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Could you also concede perhaps that there are problems with retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph in London (popular amongst some delivery drivers) and that apply the 20 mph limit to bikes would help combat that? Go on, try to agree with me on something....;-)

Yes, or course. These are illegal btw.

[Rockets]

46 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas. This can be varied by the local authority where they feel it's appropriate. In other words, the presumption is that 20mph is more appropriate in built up areas. And yes I agree with this. I assume you don't?

Again, I suggest doing some better research before posting.

This is what is actually happening.The ability of local authorities to determine the speed of 30 mph roads in their purview has been taken away from them by the Senned.

It has been replaced by a default 20mph for restricted roads (or roads that used to be 30mph) - the Welsh govermnent has referred to this a new default 20mph rules for 30 mph roads. A restricted road is defined as a road with street lamps no farther apart than every 200 yards, which takes in a huge number of urban and rural roads in Wales and this is why it is controversial so to say "built-up areas" is somewhat misleading.

Apply the same measure in London and the home counties and how does that look....which takes me back to another question you "missed" which was do you agree the A205 should be 20mph?

1 hour ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Yes, or course. These are illegal btw

Again, more research needed on your part. Conversion kits are legal if they remain within the restrictions (of power output and top speed amongst other thingd). But of course some kits are not legal as they take you over the speed limit for such bikes (15.5 mph) and this, I am sure you will agree, is where enforcing 20mph limits for bikes would help police the issue. Agree?

[first mate]

I believe in China, where there are many more bike riders than here, accidents and injury involving reckless use of bicycles -and especially e-bikes- is on the rise. 
 

With the few cycle riders we have currently, there are enough examples of reckless use, whether riding on pavements or exceeding legal e-bike speeds, to indicate that the same could happen over here if cycle and e-bike use grows in the way some hope it will.

[Earl Aelfheah]

23 hours ago, Rockets said:

Again, I suggest doing some better research before posting.

This is what is actually happening.The ability of local authorities to determine the speed of 30 mph roads in their purview has been taken away from them by the Senned.

It has been replaced by a default 20mph for restricted roads (or roads that used to be 30mph) - the Welsh govermnent has referred to this a new default 20mph rules for 30 mph roads. A restricted road is defined as a road with street lamps no farther apart than every 200 yards, which takes in a huge number of urban and rural roads in Wales and this is why it is controversial so to say "built-up areas" is somewhat misleading.

Apply the same measure in London and the home counties and how does that look....which takes me back to another question you "missed" which was do you agree the A205 should be 20mph?

Again, more research needed on your part. Conversion kits are legal if they remain within the restrictions (of power output and top speed amongst other thingd). But of course some kits are not legal as they take you over the speed limit for such bikes (15.5 mph) and this, I am sure you will agree, is where enforcing 20mph limits for bikes would help police the issue. Agree?

Literally what I said, it’s illegal to have an e-bike that takes you above 20, and in Wales roads can have a 30mph limit, but are 20 bu default. Read what I said:

On 08/12/2023 at 18:22, Earl Aelfheah said:

There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas.

 

On 08/12/2023 at 18:22, Earl Aelfheah said:

On 08/12/2023 at 18:19, Rockets said:

Could you also concede perhaps that there are problems with retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph in London (popular amongst some delivery drivers) and that apply the 20 mph limit to bikes would help combat that? Go on, try to agree with me on something....;-)

Yes, or course. These are illegal btw.

☝🏻

It’s something when you think confirming what someone said is some sort of ‘gotacha’ moment 😂

… and again, you’ve claimed that your concern is safety - which is why you want a 20 mph speed limit applied to (non-electric) push bikes. Yet you oppose the same limit applying to motor vehicles in built up areas. Completely irrational, if your concern genuinely is safety.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Earl Aelfheah

[Earl Aelfheah]

BTW, you repeatedly asked why I don’t agree with you that push bikes and cars should be policed as if they’re the same. Yet when I’ve answered you, with an explanation of how they pose completely different levels of risk to pedestrian safety because of the impact forces involved, you’ve made a joke about it. It’s not a joke. 30,000 people are killed or seriously injured every year in collisions involving motor vehicles. And the impact force is very, very relevant. Why ask a question repeatedly if you’re not interested in a reasoned response? Did you just want a yes/ no answer? 

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

Sorry you're going to have to spell it out for me...as still not seeing it.

OK. Remember, you’ve asked it to be spelt out 🙄

In response to your claim that there was a 20mph limit in Wales for “all 30 mph roads”, I said;

“There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas.” 

In response to your post asking:

“Could you also concede perhaps that there are problems with retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph in London (popular amongst some delivery drivers)”

I said:

”Yes, or course. These are illegal btw”

You then wrote another post in a mocking tone, saying:

”Again, I suggest doing some better research before posting.

This is what is actually happening.The ability of local authorities to determine the speed of 30 mph roads in their purview has been taken away from them by the Senned. [side note; you’re wrong about this bit, local authorities can make exceptions]

It has been replaced by a default 20mph for restricted roads”; and;

”Again, more research needed on your part. Conversion kits are legal if they remain within the restrictions (of power output and top speed amongst other thingd). But of course some kits are not legal as they take you over the speed limit for such bikes (15.5 mph)”

You literally confirmed both the points I had made (that there isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas and retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph are illegal), yet you tried to portray it as some sort of ‘gotcha’ moment. Frankly it doesn’t suggest any kind of good faith enquiry, but just a slightly childish (and failed) attempt at point scoring.

Generally, in any debate about road safety, or transport, you do appear to take an almost uncritical, reactionary and wholly tribal position. You’ve used a thread about 20mph limits for motor vehicles (which you oppose), to call for 20mph limits on push bikes. Why? It’s a total diversion.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Earl Aelfheah

[Rockets]

14 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

“There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas.” 

And as i explained this is wrong. It is a 20mph limit on restricted roads which are roads which have street lights no further apart than 200 yards which takes in a lot of rural areas. Your use of "built-up areas" is misleading.

 

14 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

And the impact force is very, very relevant. Why ask a question repeatedly if you’re not interested in a reasoned response?

Because yours is not a reasoned response. Of course impact force is relevant but your defence of bikes not having to honour the speed limit on the basis of the kinetic energy of being hit by a bike rather than a car is ludicrous. We hear it time and time again from the cycle lobby that somehow being hit by a bike isn't an issue. Nonsense, absolute blinkered nonsense. 

 

14 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Yes, or course. These are illegal btw”

Ah, I thought you meant conversion kits rather than conversion kits that are then retrofitted to go faster. Maybe be a bit clearer next time perhaps?

 

14 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Generally, in any debate about road safety, or transport, you do appear to take an almost uncritical, reactionary and wholly tribal position.

Ha ha, that's a bit rich....;-)

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

4 hours ago, Rockets said:

And as i explained this is wrong. It is a 20mph limit on restricted roads which are roads which have street lights no further apart than 200 yards which takes in a lot of rural areas. Your use of "built-up areas" is misleading.

You mocked me for not ‘doing my research’ on the policy in wales, after I made the statement that:

“There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas.” 

Well had you done a quick Google you would have pulled up this explanation from the BBC:

“The 20mph limit has come into force for all restricted roads, which are defined as roads with lampposts placed not more than 200 yards (about 180m) apart…They are typically located in residential and built-up areas of high pedestrian activity… The Welsh government has acknowledged the new lower limit is not appropriate everywhere and has said local authorities can make exceptions”

I would say that this aligns pretty clearly with the statement that “There isn't a 20 mph limit for all '30 mph roads' in Wales. There is a default 20 mph limit in built up areas.” 

Also, your claim that:

“The ability of local authorities to determine the speed of 30 mph roads in their purview has been taken away from them by the Senned.” Is wrong. 

My response to your post asking:

“Could you also concede perhaps that there are problems with retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph in London (popular amongst some delivery drivers)”

Was:

”Yes, or course. These are illegal btw”

It really couldn’t have be clearer. You referred specifically to “retro-fitted e-bikes that allow riders to travel at over 20mph”

If you’re going to mock someone for not doing their research, it’s best to read what they’ve said first, and to do some rudimentary 'research' (or even just a quick Google) of the topic yourself.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Administrator
Remove discussion about being off-topic, not relevant any more

[Rockets]

Earl, your argument was that bikes do not need to comply to speed limits because of their kinetic energy compared to cars which is an utter, utter nonsense and so flawed and blinkered it is laughable.

Given your stoic refusal to answer the question why you think speed limits should not apply to bike we must presume that it is on the basis of "kinetic energy" and your assumption that being hit by a bike is better for you than being hit by a car. I am sure anyone hit by a bike takes real solace from that....

[Earl Aelfheah]

There are around 30,000 serious injuries and deaths involving motor vehicles each year. 

A person is around five times more likely to be killed when hit by a car travelling at 30mph than one travelling at 20mph. That’s why many feel that 20 mph is a more appropriate limit for motor vehicles in built up / residential areas. I agree.

There has been an attempt to distract from a discussion of this, and change the conversation to whether laws should be introduced to treat push bikes and motor vehicles as if they were the same.

I have illustrated how false an equivalence this is already, but simply, the more energy a road user is bringing into a collision, the more likely a pedestrian being struck is to be seriously injured or killed. An average car hits a pedestrian with perhaps 40 times the energy of a push bike travelling at a similar speed. The two are not remotely comparable. If you think impact force is irrelevant, you haven’t understood it.

This is why I don’t like attempts to change the subject / distract from the very real issue of those 30,000 who are seriously injured or killed annually (by people in cars, vans and HGVs, not sitting on top of a bicycle)

More generally: to those for whom the word ‘car’ triggers a Pavlovian rant about ‘cyclists’, your ‘football-ification’ of any discussion on transport or road safety is boring. You don’t have to blindly come out batting for ‘your team’.  You’re not on a team, it’s all in your head. Most people drive, bus, walk and cycle at different times. The wicked ‘cyclist’ you rail against, is probably also your ‘brother driver’. Maybe take some time off from the ‘there’s a war on motorists’ Twitter holes and Daily Mail opinion pieces, and stop trying to turn everything into a misguided points scoring exercise. I hate to break it to you, but there isn’t a prize.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Earl Aelfheah

[Administrator]

This topic has been split from the "20mph in Southwark" one and renamed to "Should cyclists have the same speed restrictions as motor vehicles?". The other has also been renamed to "20mph for motor vehicles in Southwark"

I have removed most of the replies related to the discussion being off-topic due to the pivot towards cycling discussion. Some replies which did not add anything to the topic have been deleted.

[malumbu]

Thanks Admin, attached an earlier post on e bikes that links to other threads on the issue - licensing always crops up when speed limits for bikes are discussed.  You'll all be pleased that I have said my piece 😄🙄

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Licensing of bikes comes up from time to time usually when the current government want to send red meat to their more hard line supporters or distract from small nuisances like fibbing ex Prime Ministers.  Government officials remind the Transport Secretary that is has been looked at time and time again, is daft and undeliverable.  We've chatted many times about this on the Forum, so to save time I've attached the previous thread www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/313035-cyclists-could-be-made-to-have-registration-plates-and-insurance-–-report/#comment-1590414

There are numerous articles on why it is daft, many in cycling journals, but also from serious journalists like Peter Walker, who lives locally.  Rather than go to recent articles this one from 2010 shows it was daft 13 years ago  https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2010/dec/13/regulating-cyclists

I did find a spoof article in Viz or Private Eye that you will enjoy.  Just don't take it seriously folks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11117805/Shake-road-laws-bike-riders-forced-registration-numbers-insurance.html

[Rockets]

Malumbu the thread is not about licensing.....

As someone who cycles a lot (sorry to disappoint you Earl!) I think any measures to encourage cyclists to conform to rules is a good thing. Granted, there are not many cyclists going over 20mph and policing it is impossible but there are too many who cycle who think the rules of the road don't apply to them (red lights, pavement cycling etc). Unfortunately, as we have seen in the car world, sometimes more draconian measures are required to get the message across to everyone about how people are supposed to behave.

P.S. Earl I don't read the Daily Mail, again, sorry to disappoint you but your attempts to pigeon hole me as some right-wing looney are not even close, and again a well-worn name calling tactic used by many......but never let the truth get in the way of a good story and all that! 😉

P.P.S Malumbu, Peter Walker "a serious journalist"...only if you like your active travel coverage bread buttered on one side! 😉

[Happyme5]

Cycling is a great thing.  But for some people cyclists are a bit scary.  As not all cyclists are safe or respectful of pedestrians or motor vehicles. They can at times be vocally aggressive.  And a danger to others.

[Spartacus]

As this thread has now been split and aska the question "Should cyclists have the same speed restrictions as motor vehicles?" Then my answer is a resounding YES 

It's nothing to do with kinetic energy, or collisions but perception and pedestrian safety.

Perception in terms of if the rules don't apply to all road users, then one group will see that as a green light to follow only the rules they want to hence the views that cyclists are poor road users jumping lights,  using pavements and so on. 

Pedestrian Safety in terms of a pedestrian will judge if it is safe to cross the road not on the speed that a vehicle or cyclist is going but by how far away they are. If the vehicle or cyclist is going faster than the speed limit then the time to cover the distance will be less than the pedestrian expects. Equally cyclists aRe cited as saying they don't like stopping at red lights as it slows them down and have to expend energy starting again after stopping. If they kept to the 20mph Rule then they would have less issues slowing down and starting again. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Spartacus

[tedfudge]

If anybody wants to see how dangerous and stupid some cyclists are when they speed then please have a look on tik tok and type in cyclists hit barrier , let us know what you think about that as clearly shows cyclists going faster than they should as anybody could come from the left of the picture and br seriously injured or worse and they are going that fast they dont even see the barrier . Please take a look 

To the avid cyclists on this thread have you ever read the highway code for cyclists ? Because I have and I have it on my phone as I like to tell dangerous cyclists the law about 

It Is a requirement by law to have lights on bicycles when dark and must stop at red traffic lights 

Must stop at pedestrian crossings when people are crossing 

Must hand signal at roundabouts and when turning corners 

Must not ride on pavements 

It's a pretty interesting read and as earl has said there is NOT a speed limit for a cyclist as they are not motorised so earl wins that argument , but they should obey the rules of the road as they are using it , it cannot be one rule for one and one rule for another that is what creates conflict etc , I also blame the police for not enforcing this laws when they see cyclists ride through red lights or no lights when dark or riding on pavement etc .. if there  is no vehicles coming or pedestrians crossing road but lights are red motorists must stop but cyclists for some reason think they are above the law and ride through them and that's what annoys motorists 

[malumbu]

Yes and most motorists do not obey 20 mph speed limits.  The police force needs to be doubled in number to enforce this.  Don't get me started on pedestrians not looking when crossing the road.  

[Rockets]

I noticed that in the Dulwich Square consultation plans the council's proposals include:

• Separating pedestrians, cyclists and motorists; reducing cyclists' speed through traffic calming

 

Clearly the council are acknowledging that there has been a problem with cyclists' speed through that pedestrian priority layout.

[tedfudge]

Last night I watched as a cyclist sped through a red light and nearly hit by a Tesco lorry and the when the Tesco lorry driver bibbed him he just total ignored him ( other cyclists had stopped at red light ) 

[malumbu]

Depends on your perspective Rocks, I've never gone through Dulwich Square at an unacceptable speed or had any issues with pedestrians.  Nor the other way round.  But I don't monitor it as much as I expect you do.

[spoiltdog]

Definitely, should also have reg plate,Insurance some sort of mot ,I was told it's not actually law for cyclists to have lights at night

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Depends on your perspective Rocks, I've never gone through Dulwich Square at an unacceptable speed or had any issues with pedestrians.  Nor the other way round.  But I don't monitor it as much as I expect you do.

I don't do it so obviously no one else does eh Mal 🤣

[Rockets]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Depends on your perspective Rocks,

That is the council's perspective as they are calling out speeding cyclists as a problem that needs addressing with the new design of the junction.....so it seems a lot stronger than perspective....maybe you can accuse them of being anti-cyclist...or maybe just acknowledge there might be a problem ;-).

 

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

But I don't monitor it as much as I expect you do.

 That's because I live nearby and walk through there most days and dodge the speeding full kit wallies most weekends.........because I am, well, a local resident. The problem many of us local residents have is when people like to pass judgement or involve themselves and meddle in things from afar when they clearly know very little about what is going on and then challenge our observations as somehow wrong or warped to a certain narrative...;-)

[tedfudge]

4 hours ago, spoiltdog said:

Definitely, should also have reg plate,Insurance some sort of mot ,I was told it's not actually law for cyclists to have lights at night

Do bicycles need lights UK?

 

 

 

The most basic requirement of the law is to fit a white front light and a red rear light which must be clean and working properly, when cycling between sunset and sunrise. Reflectors should also be fitted to pedals and the rear of the cycle.

Spoilt dog 

Type on Google or look at highway code for cyclists and it will tell you the laws for lights , red lights , etc. 

Has anybody watched the tik tok clips yet of cyclist hits barrier ?

Can anybody tell me and others on here what happens if a cyclist damages a vehicle by breaking wing mirror , denting or scratching vehicle as they go past etc .. if I was to damage a cyclists bike my insurance company would pay out and by law I would have to stop and give details to cyclist but how would I know if cyclist is giving real name and how would they pay for any damage etc ,,? This is why cyclists need to have insurance it would also make them be more careful and considerate to others