20mph for motor vehicles in Southwark

[malumbu]

You wont be surprised that I am fully in favour.  After a near miss with a van driving too close to me on Brenchley Gardens (a bit daft really as it was a national distribution company) I googled to find out more about the area and came across the following report from Southwark on five key areas including Forest Hill Road and Brenchley Gardens www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/borough-wide-20mph-speed-limit?chapter=5

As predominantly a cyclist I am not in favour of the changes on Brenchley Gardens - the slight narrowing means that you have to move to the primary position (ie centre of the road) as there isn't sufficient room for drivers to overtake if a vehicle is coming in the opposite direction.  A separate cycle lane would have been much more appropriate.  Now I love controlling the road being in this position on most of the London streets, full of parked cars, and the sooner that motorised transport realises that cyclists have just as much right as others the better.  But on Brenchley Gardens it makes you vulnerable as so many drivers use it as a race track.

Anyway this is not a car vs bike thread, but a 20mph thread, in particular road design.

Separately I was struck by another social media site which had drivers complaining at the frustration of doing 20mph and all but condoning some doing daft/dangerous things.  just adapt please and it becomes normal.

[first mate]

 But you have just gone on at length about issues between bikes and parked cars, including your personal experience of near misses with cars and how you "love controlling the road".

Having vented on cars and bikes you cannot then direct everyone else to stick rigidly to whatever it is you feel the thread should focus on. 

 

 

[malumbu]

Why not?  The point is that the redesign endangers cyclists.  If other road users are happy to share the road then fine.  But we all know those who couldn't give a fig.

In built up areas, more road parking, that constricts traffic speeds.  It doesn't work on Brenchley Gardens.  If you feel otherwise then I'd love to know.  If you don't agree with 20 mph zones then please give your reasons.  Rather than a cheap snipe at me.  I know huge amounts on road management, driver behaviour and whilst life is too short to go through all the processes and regulations it is always good to hear other opinions or else I will be living in a bubble

 

[Rockets]

Malumbu, this thread you have started seems to be more about your personal concerns about Brenchley Gardens in particular so you might want to change the thread title or move it to a Forest Hill forum.

 

P.S. I am glad you are sharing your huge amounts of knowledge on road management and driver behaviour with us. Mr Chicken has engineering covered (although has been significantly muted by admins new behaviour rules) and now you are our self-proclaimed road management and driver behaviour expert - we know who to turn to in case of questions.

[malumbu]

Good heavens Rocks, don't you have anything constructive to post? (factual comment not a snipe).   Brenchley Gardens starts in East Dulwich I believe, it is part of the SE23 post code that it in Southwark.  Forest Hill Road is in SE22, so again in East Dulwich.

[Rockets]

It is not - Brenchley Gardens is SE23 - all of the houses on that road have SE23 postcodes - it's the same as Canonbie on the other side. Forest Hill Road is in SE22 but your post is about Brenchley Gardens. 

[malumbu]

Here's another one for you not to share views or engage on: Barry Road, sustainable streets - noting average speed is above 24mph  https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s81653/Appendix C.pdf

[Rockets]

Malumbu, the item you post is a summary of the consultation process for speed interventions on Barry Road in East Dulwich - I am not sure what sort of views or engagements you are looking for or what point you are trying to make? Perhaps you could tell us if the interventions that document is proposing have been installed and had the desired effect - did speeds reduce on the back of this intervention? Barry Road has always been an issue for speeding cars.

[Penguin68]

The reason for speeding in Barry is two-fold - the first is the actual topography of the road - it is straight and downhill which encourages speed, even on person-powered two wheelers as they pick up speed heading towards The Rye - and the second is the resistance of TFL to anything which stops the progress of their buses, so many types of speed restriction are reduced or resisted.

Long before Southwark bothered themselves with traffic issues local people have been complaining of safety issues around Barry, to absolutely no (or very little) avail. Indeed some of the build-outs have made the situation, regarding safety, actually worse.

[malumbu]

Thought you or your gang may have some views on Southwark's management of Barry Road.  Beyond how bad you consider Southwark to be.  Do you agree with 20mph or is this the fault of those meddling puritanical wokes like me?

[Rockets]

You or your gang....sigh....

 

20mph makes sense in some areas, less sense in others.

 

It's a bit like the ludicrous decision to make a large section of the Westway flyover 30 mph, it makes no sense - this is the problem when the "meddling puritanical wokes" find themselves in positions of power they tend to make ludicrous decisions driven by ideology rather than pragmatism.

 

[Paul Eastham]

You must be the laisser faire white van man who overtook me at 45 mph on Barry Road the other day….

[Penguin68]

  On 27/11/2023 at 17:52, malumbu said:

Thought you or your gang may have some views on Southwark's management of Barry Road. 

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Why are you always looking for a fight? - that really is the mark of the troll. Speeding on Barry Road has long been a problem, which simply setting a 20mph limit has not addressed. Residents/ those using the road as motorists or pedestrians or cyclists have asked for a number of additional measures, including speed cameras, and these have all been turned back by Southwark/ TFL (it's a bus route so they have some say). Either Southwark does wholly manage Barry Road, in which case problems are all theirs, or it's also a TFL issue (it is a road with a number) - either which way pointing out that it has long been a problem, which isn't resolved (as a later sarky white van man comment supports) is simply factual. Nobody that I have read on these pages has suggested that 20mph for Barry Road is not an appropriate speed limit, nor that it shouldn't be observed/ policed. But it isn't (either). Are you such a supporter of Southwark Council that you will brook no criticism of them under any circumstances? A Council which isn't even 'yours'.  What devotion!

[malumbu]

It's a forum where we discuss issues.  Some people seem unable to do this.  My views are 20 mph us right but for a variety of reasons it doesn't work, primarily due to driver behaviour.  That is a national issue.  Locally on roads like Barry, where it is possible to get a fair speed up, then average speed cameras are the way forward.  But I understand revenue from fines go to the police and a central pot, rather than used locally.  

[first mate]

So the question you should be asking is why, despite resident requests, have Southwark/TFL not put cameras in?

[tedfudge]

I have asked southwark council to put more speed bumps etc on Barry road at least 6 times in the 22 years I have lived there as seen many a crash including 2 cars I have owned being written off while parked outside my own house by poor drivers who speed etc , the response from council was that it is up to the police to request speed bumps and cameras etc ( which I find rubbish ) I am with ppppick up a penguin 68 ( couldn't help myself sorry penguin )

That it's all to do with the buses

20mph zones do NOT deter people from driving faster than 20 I must admit I do it myself , not excessively but I dont always stick to the 20 unless iam driving near a school which I will drive slower than 20 or a park etc but some roads like the old Kent road should not be a 20mph road that's just plain stupidly by someone sitting in an office wondering what they can do today to keep their job 

[Penguin68]

  On 29/11/2023 at 10:32, tedfudge said:

I am with ppppick up a penguin 68 ( couldn't help myself sorry penguin )

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You are excused!!!

[Rockets]

It seems a little odd that Southwark can put cameras up for the purposes of policing LTNs yet can't for speed related issues (or can't lobby the police to do so if it is their responsibility).

 

Does anyone know why buses are the issue - I understand it for speed humps etc as they have a low long wheel base but cameras? Is the bus issue the key here that if the buses are forced to go 20 mph that it creates problems with their scheduling?

[first mate]

Snap! I frequently see buses breaking the speed limit. In fact, in my view, they are among the worst offenders. 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by first mate

[malumbu]

,Speeding is a criminal offence therefore is a matter for the police.  Government has been lobbied to decriminalise speeding, and therefore allow local authorities to enforce and potentially increase the number of cameras.  Don't think government are interested.

[Penguin68]

Whilst it is true that speeding offences have traditionally been the purview of the Met, Wandsworth is running its own speeding cameras, as a trial, and councils have always been able to put up 'advisory' signs which flash when speeds are exceeded, even though these don't have powers to fine. Southwark could do the same if it wanted.

[Spartacus]

Wandsworth were stopped from doing that 

https://www.localgov.co.uk/Wandsworth-Council-stopped-from-issuing-unlawful-fines/55629#:~:text=The council had introduced speed,drivers with the local authority.

[Penguin68]

Sorry, hadn't picked up on that. I'm amazed that Wandsworth would have launched a scheme so swiftly identified as illegal. 

[Lebanums]

  On 26/10/2023 at 22:01, malumbu said:

You wont be surprised that I am fully in favour.  After a near miss with a van driving too close to me on Brenchley Gardens (a bit daft really as it was a national distribution company) I googled to find out more about the area and came across the following report from Southwark on five key areas including Forest Hill Road and Brenchley Gardens www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/borough-wide-20mph-speed-limit?chapter=5

As predominantly a cyclist I am not in favour of the changes on Brenchley Gardens - the slight narrowing means that you have to move to the primary position (ie centre of the road) as there isn't sufficient room for drivers to overtake if a vehicle is coming in the opposite direction.  A separate cycle lane would have been much more appropriate.  Now I love controlling the road being in this position on most of the London streets, full of parked cars, and the sooner that motorised transport realises that cyclists have just as much right as others the better.  But on Brenchley Gardens it makes you vulnerable as so many drivers use it as a race track.

Anyway this is not a car vs bike thread, but a 20mph thread, in particular road design.

Separately I was struck by another social media site which had drivers complaining at the frustration of doing 20mph and all but condoning some doing daft/dangerous things.  just adapt please and it becomes normal.

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I hear you Malumbu. I was driving along Brenchley yesterday, some idiot driver coming in the other direction was trying to overtake cyclists even though my side of the road wasn't clear. I don't think narrowed roads has improved the safety issue.

[malumbu]

Wot a bunch of wonkers the current government are - rather than stop Wandsworth giving out fines they should look how the current law could be used or changed to allow this.  But whilst supporting the concept a few years ago they are now so frightened of upsetting the poor put upon motorists.  I'll put my feelers out to find more, I've got loads of moles, that's because I'm a transport professional.  Oh I hope they crash and burn in the next election, bugger all bounce from turning their back on green commitments.