20 mph Wales

[malumbu]

Hopefully for most not a controversial issue.  Wales has introduced 20mph limits on urban roads.  Just as we have in most inner boroughs in London.  Government has commented that this was cost loads in lost production ignoring that many urban areas in England have it already, which fits in with their love motorists and manufactured culture wars agenda.

I listened to the repeat of Any Questions on Saturday so left it too late to comment but the panel were pretty useless and uninformed.  Phil Redond sticking up for the motorist said that as Wales in rural they all need cars there.  Perhaps your hols stopped in Colwyn Bay Phil but according to the Encyclopedia Britannia four fifths of Welsh people live in urban settlements.

20 mph has to go along with public information campaigns.  It can lead to smoother roads and definitely less deaths, ideally without the need for traffic calming that has to be used because so many drivers will just ignore it otherwise.

[first mate]

Fascinating presentation in September Environment Scrutiny session by ENSO rep on developing sustainable tyres. He moves into car territory and says that reducing 30-20mph does not really make a difference to emissions and particulates, it is the acceleration speed and driver behaviour, which is harder to regulate. Hmmm. Cllr Newens looks a bit shifty at this point.

Margy also later explains that what Southwark really want in the borough is no tires at all!

I'd be interested in a pollutant comparison between a small petrol car with sustainable tyres and the heavier EV. Does such data exist? 

The other point I found interesting is that, according to the ENSO guy, road surface is also crucial. This adds another dimension. Car users are not directly responsible for road surfaces.

Fully accept the correlation between lower speed and fewer deaths from RTAs.

Edited September 26, 2023 by first mate

[malumbu]

There is a fundamental issue about driver behaviour that I have banged on about for years.  It's the soft on the accelerator and minimised braking, watching the road ahead and anticipating.  Let's face it that 90 percent of drivers have no idea.  I do very little driving but would beat most in any ecodriving challenge.  Having had a professional interest in road user behaviour and standards it frustrates me greatly.  Government does diddly squat and gave up on its own road to zero commitments on this published under the last Tory government.  Such a shame that drivers see no room to improve.

[first mate]

I think the get from A-Z as fast as I can, taking risks along the way because I think I can get away with it mindset, bleeds over into other road-user issues. I accept cars are a more dangerous tool but human behaviour underpins most of the problems.

What struck me was the extent to which the ENSO guy felt human behaviour and road surfaces superseded most other considerations...yet these are not really addressed, that I can see?

[Rockets]

BBC News - Man behind Wales' 20mph limit admits mistakes
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70j0gv5xpdo

 

Common sense.....more of that please!

Edited September 15, 2024 by Rockets

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

  On 15/09/2024 at 06:41, Rockets said:

BBC News - Man behind Wales' 20mph limit admits mistakes

Common sense.....more of that please!

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Totally agree, Rockets. Despite Welsh Labour's ability to misdeliver every message and taint every action with its own infighting, the 20mph default has been a huge success and it should be recognised for it. 🙌   

As your article mentioned: "Lee Waters, who resigned as transport minister in March, said it was “quite clear” that the policy had reduced speeds and saved lives...recent figures suggested injuries on 20mph and 30mph roads fell by a third in the final quarter of last year..."

But its not just a reduction in deaths and injuries. There is also early encouraging news news when it comes to car insurance: "Vehicle damage claims in Wales have fallen by 20% at one leading car insurer...Rob Clark, head of motor underwriting at esure, said: “We can see a clear drop in vehicle damage claims in Wales since the 20mph speed restriction was introduced in September 2023. During a time when we usually see these claims rise, they dropped and have continued to do so in the first quarter of 2024. The restriction is clearly having an impact.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/09/vehicle-damage-claims-wales-fall-20mph-speed-limit

Course, we've had 20mph default in Southwark for a decade now, so we could have told our Welsh cousins it wasn't going to be the end of the world...

[Rockets]

And that's all great and is positive for everyone but we have seen so, so, many times before that these measures are implemented without any common sense and it is interesting that he is flagging that as the u-turn on much of it happens. It is the lack of common sense that has created the "culture war" that so many supporting their implementation bang on about and once you have created that monster you'll never get people back on-side.

At local, regional and national levels it is the lack of common sense that so annoys so many and is why we are where we are. LTNs, CPZs and 20mph all suffer from the same challenge - implemented in ways that didn't take the majority with them.

The moment anyone dare to suggest common sense had not been used the protagonists would stoke a culture war by trying to demonise them "small minority, right-wing, taxi drivers etc etc" and instead of working with the community actively worked against them - just look at the thousands of messages posted on this forum.

From day one I was saying that the lack of common sense was doing massive long-term harm to the fight against climate change as people were not being engaged and taken on the journey and so it has turned out to be. And that lies solely at the feet of those responsible for implementing them.

 

Edited September 15, 2024 by Rockets

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

  On 15/09/2024 at 08:24, Rockets said:

And that's all great and is positive for everyone

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Hooray! Three cheers for 20mph defaults! 🍾 🪅 🥳 🎊 🍾 🪅 

[malumbu]

Heavens, everyone knows better in hindsight.

But it's a question of what is acceptable to society.  I want reductions in the number of killed and seriously injured😞 which if you look at my post on another thread has plateaued.  20 mph in more areas is surely one way forward.  If you feel that current KSI numbers are acceptable and oppose further measures due to some fabricated culture war or you don't believe that rights to driving should not be curtailed then that is disappointing.

It's a shame that anger from a minority over local measures to reduce emissions, reduce car journeys and promote active and sustainable travel have spilled over into anything affecting driving, including policies to improve road safety.

[malumbu]

20 mph in Wales has been shown to save many lives, with around 100 fewer killed or seriously injured per year.  It's great to report positive news about the road network and I hope there is a wider role out 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/mar/22/wales-20mph-speed-limit-cut-road-deaths-why-debate

Reading the article I came across the term motonormativity; essentially the belief that many accept that KSIs are part and package of motoring 

More info

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motonormativity

Shame I couldn't 'like' my previous post, I'm very impressed 👍 

[Rockets]

I saw Peter Walker's article in the Guardian and thought, hang on this is old news and lo, the BBC wrote about it in January which then made me wonder why Peter Walker decided to write about it now. It's not news, so why now? Anyone have any clue, is he using it as part of a lobbying effort?

Normally, now that he is acting political editor, his forays into his old patch of transport are usually built around "exclusives" most often fed to him by his pals in the cycle/active travel lobby because they know he will treat their narrative sympathetically and he will not ask any probing questions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

[malumbu]

So @Rockets, is this good news or not?  Not sure why you have to go beyond this.  Edited to add, as you were aware of the BBC report perhaps you could have put this up on the EDF.

Edited March 26 by malumbu

[Rockets]

Of course its good news but why did Peter Walker decide to write about it now - it's really old news?

And it's a classic Walker article in that the headline makes a definitive statement:

 

Wales 20mph limit has cut road deaths. Why is there still even a debate?

 

.....and yet his opening paragraph contradicts his headline by referring to the caveats that the Welsh government has applied to pause jumping to the conclusion of his headline. This is cub reporter stuff.

Here is how the BBC dealt with those caveats:

Government officials have urged caution in attributing the fall in casualties to the 20mph limit.

The Welsh government's chief statistician said in a blog last year that at least three year's worth of collision data would be required for a meaningful comparison to be made.

Casualty figures have also been on a downward trend for sometime - the Welsh government said they have "declined steadily over the last decade".

So why did Peter decide to write that article now and gloss over the cabeats part? What do you think?

  On 26/03/2025 at 23:09, malumbu said:

Edited to add, as you were aware of the BBC report perhaps you could have put this up on the EDF.

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I did. See post above yours.

[Moovart]

  On 26/03/2025 at 22:59, Rockets said:

I saw Peter Walker's article in the Guardian...

Normally, now that he is acting political editor.....

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Just for accuracy, he's Acting Deputy Political Editor at the moment.

The excellent Pippa Crerar is the current Political Editor. 👍

[malumbu]

Guardian article is fairly balanced and quotes other points of view on 20mph, although none of the major parties are against it in principle.  I'm not sure why you saw some sort of agenda.

I do like the concluding line - There is, perhaps, a lesson here for politicians, although not an easy one: sometimes it can be best to ignore the noisiest voices, and take the evidence-based course.

In this situation the evidence is compelling.  Slow vehicles down and there will be less harm where there is a collision, even if there is no other road user involved such as driving into a lamppost.

 

Edited March 27 by malumbu
Repetition

[Rockets]

Yup it's about as "fairly balanced" as you're going to get from the Guardian....but in typical Guardian style the headline is hyperbole not actually born out in the rest of the article 😉                                                                            

It was clear from my posts that I was questioning the timing of it - why did Peter Walker suddenly decide to write about it now - one wonders what the trigger for it was given the same story was extensively covered some months ago in other media?