Government's zero emissions ambitions, now government's zero ambition

[legalalien]

I doubt Rishi’s going to mention cycle infrastructure - isn’t he supposed to be close to Andrew Gilligan? And see

https://cyclingindustry.news/sunak-stays-the-course-on-cycling-policy-truss-yet-to-offer-stance/

I do think that the overarching direction of transport policy should be more centralised as (no surprise) I think local government should be largely focused on delivering a discrete set of services (and frankly I find it very odd that schools are included in those, but I grew up overseas where things were different). Given Keir Starmer is likely to be in charge of central govt in the near future I imagine his instincts might favour centralisation as well… not sure where things stand in the Labour Party in terms of the relative leftist vs centrist stances of councils vs the parliamentary party (not just in terms of transport but more generally?)

[Rockets]

39 minutes ago, malumbu said:

By blaming Southwark and TfL for the national picture you have fallen into Sunak's trap.

This is about how awful our government is.  It doesn't matter a jot to me about Khan, Southwark or any other Labour authority. Sunak senses that many reasonable people may vote for him and is exploiting that 

I'm currently on a185 bunched with another 185 on Champion Hill.  Annoying but not vote Tory due to that.

Not sure where I blame Southwark and TFL for the national picture Malumbu. What I am saying is that it is exactly because this government is so awful that they are using the local picture to try to mould the national picture and Labour run administrations in Wales, London and other places are providing the fuel for the fire because of the awful way they have handled the roll-out of active travel and their "anti-car" policies. The Tories are trying to scare the living daylights out of anyone who uses a car, in the same way that the fools who voted for Brexit got scared in the run-up to that referendum.

 

The Tories are hoping that people around the country see what Labour has done at the local level and go, nope, don't fancy that - it's the only thing the Tories have left - they're at rock bottom and will do anything to try to survive. Their strategic goal is probably to try and create a hung-parliament - cos that's the best they could hope for and remember this is just the warm-up because the date for the election has not even been set yet.

Legal, that's a very good point. Once Keir gets into power centralisation might afford him more control of the far-left elements of his party and he might use it to continue the purge and Southwark would probably be the poster-child for a Labour administration that would need fixing.

[Spartacus]

This popped up in feed this morning 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/pm-expected-to-limit-new-20mph-zones/ar-AA1hqR1u?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=09d8efec03044371b5d3b6be83833b3f&ei=29

Talking about the potential changes that may be introduced by the government. 

It is quoted as saying "He (Rishi) is reportedly planning to limit the power of local authorities to impose new 20mph zones, restrict the number of hours a day that cars are banned from bus lanes, and scale back low-traffic neighbourhoods (LTNs)" 

However I love the quote further iin which is 'Sarah Mitchell, chief executive of charity Cycling UK, said: “When Beeching took an axe to local railways in the 1960s, we were robbed of the freedom to choose how we travel. The Government’s reported Plan for Motorists feels like history repeating itself."'

Isn't that a little pot and kettle saying that as the cycling lobby seems to want to remove our freedom of choice to drive 🤔 

 

Politics huh, everyone spinning but none making sense. 

 

[Rockets]

Spartacus - you missed the best bit of Sarah's quote which is actually beyond incredulous given how single-mode focussed London's "active travel" plans have been on cycling....;-) 

 

Oh my...if we had had a holistic plan from Sadiq, TFL and Will then London wouldn't be in the mess it is in now!!!

 

 

“We need a holistic plan for how people can travel – not a plan that zooms in on one particular mode of transport.

“Better public transport and safer ways for people to cycle and walk are entirely compatible with driving.

“Focusing on one way of travelling is like trying to complete a jigsaw with half the pieces missing.”

[malumbu]

Not sure why you consider London is in such a mess, there are good things and bad things.  Most of us still want to live in the Metropolis.  Recent governments have looked to reversing some of the mess from privitisation of buses, using the TfL franchise model, and the first publicly run buses have returned to Greater Manchester https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-66901355 .  Under Johnson there were quite ambitious plans to increase bus patronage across the country, but I expect this has been put on the back burner https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/558349/the-bus-services-bill-an-overview.pdf.  Let's see if Sunak agrees with the vision in the Bill: The Government wants to: Grow bus passenger numbers,Tackle air quality hot spots, Improve bus services for passengers, Enable a thriving and innovative commercial bus sector, Help cities and regions unlock opportunity and grow their economy

Of course we forget we have a Labour Mayor (Livingstone) to thank for much of the improvements in bus services - reversed in some respects due to Covid but in particular Johnson's bad deal with the government over TfL funding.  It's too easy to look at his failings rather than his positive legacy. 

Hmm, got that one wrong.  The Bus Bill was actually from 2016.  I understood that in 2021 we were going to have a new Bill under Johnson, but that doesn't have seem to gone ahead.  I will ask my Whitehall contacts for more info.

[Rockets]

It's starting.....

BBC News - Sunak vows to stop 20mph zones and review LTNs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66965714

 

 

 

The government said its plan would:

• Review guidance on 20mph speed limits in England, to prevent their use in "areas where it's not appropriate"
• "Amend guidance" on LTNs "to focus on local consent", and weigh public support for those already introduced
• Stop councils implementing "15-minute cities", where essential amenities are always within a 15-minute walk
• Seek to reduce the hours where cars are banned from bus lanes
• Target "overzealous" enforcement of parking
• Consult on extending fines for disruptive street repairs which run into weekends

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Rockets

[Rockets]

Ha ha.. at least 3 of these things Cllr McAsh claims are actually also the issues caused by his LTNs!

 

[malumbu]

Sad that you are rejoicing in this Rocks.  Total ignorance by the authorities on 15 minute cities.  Do you not agree with any of the Councillors views?

And... could you and others please use the LTN threads rather than hijack this one which is about the governments u turns etc on climate change commitments.  Your time would be well served listening to people like Sir David King.

[Spartacus]

Mal 

London is not feasible as a 15 minute city,  whilst there are pockets of similar facilities spread across London, some things just can't be local so travel of more than 15 minutes is essential. Even removing all cars, buses can't physically get from one area to the next in 15 minutes unless thw driver is doing 80 and not picking up passengers. 

Personally I think it is sensible that things are being reviewed and revaluated to make sure those that work stay and those that haven't are removed to keep everyone moving.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, where did I rejoice...sharing the info is not rejoicing is it....?

 

Is this not one part of the government's U-turn?

[legalalien]

What I find interesting is how many things Sunak’s team think can be achieved by changing guidance rather than having to amend statute/ regulation. Why? IMHO because local government have been pushing the boundaries by using statutory powers for improper purposes - and that’s not too hard for central govt to rein in if they are so minded. If anyone has a hotline to Conservative HQ can they suggest they focus on Southwark 😂😂

[malumbu]

Ultimately local authorities should be taking decisions on local roads.  Government can put relevant safeguards in place.  Government set up a programme of Low Traffic Neighbourhoods.  If you don't like them blame government.  There is always an argument of do it now rather than naval gaze for years.  Not so long ago government was very happy with 20mph zones too.  There was no great backlash when most of the London inner boroughs introduced this.  In Wales  on the basis of my argument above then this perhaps should have similarly been up to local authorities.  Although I have no problem with government reducing the national speed limit to 20mph in urban areas in England, following suite.

Here's the government guidance on 20mph

"In 1999, the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 was amended to allow local authorities to designate 20mph speed limits without the prior approval of the Secretary of State.

In 2013, DfT provided revised guidelines on the Setting Local Speed Limits (DfT Circular 01/2013),  encouraging traffic authorities to consider introducing more 20mph limits over time, and over a larger number of roads. It states that where there is expected to be a positive effect on road safety and a generally favourable reception from local residents, traffic authorities are able to use their powers to introduce 20mph speed limits on major streets where foot and cycle movements are important, and on residential streets where the characteristics of the street are suitable. It advises that 20mph limits are most appropriate where the mean speed is already at or below 24mph; and states that speed limits should encourage self-compliance with no expectation of additional police enforcement.

There has been a substantial growth in the implementation of area-wide limits in recent years, in response to the guidance."

Hardly hostile.
 

[Rockets]

Govt set up the idea of LTNs but they didn't implement them - that was down to local authorities and, clearly, local authorities took advantage. Now, if the local authorities did everything by the book, ran fair consultations and engaged the views of the local communities and deployed the LTNs within guidelines then they have nothing to fear surely?

 

If they didn't do everything by the book then they only have themselves to blame.

P.S. One suspects the Tories know Labour councils did not do everything by the book and I suspect Labour councils and Labour HQ are more than aware of this. You reap what you sow....but if this does bear fruit for the Tories you have to question how Labour allowed themselves to sleep walk into this trap...it was bleedingly obvious what was going on from the outset (from a perspective of Labour councils bending the rules to their advantage and ignoring local sentiment/views of constituents)

Edited September 30, 2023 by Rockets

[Spartacus]

Will be interesting to see if the Borough wide CPZ also gets caught up in the process.

Again an abuse of the consultation process.

[malumbu]

First round of LTNs was here's some money.  Go and do it.  That was government, the local authorities did not initiate the scheme.  Anyway I'm well bored of LTNs.  Please go and discuss that on the LTNs thread.

 

Didn't any of you angry about LTNs think the government's u turn on 20 mph interesting?  So you have a government who introduced LTNs, didn't support them, and then once the Mail got interested changed their mind.  Believe you I know.  And encouraged and supported 20 mph only to now to reverse their policy.  Heavens they are awful.  Awful.  Awful.

[Spartacus]

No ones angry about LTNs Mel, the anger is about how underhand this council were and are in introducing schemes against consistents wishes. 

Southwark were given some money to implement temporary social distancing measures during covid but seem to have used the proverb "given an inch take a mile" of parking away 🤔 

As said, a central review isn't a bad thing to occur and may bring sanity back into what feels like a land grab by the council.

[Rockets]

And Malumbu, is this just not the democratic process in play? The Tories are desperate for votes and they think they have found somewhere to get them because they believe there are a number of people who are tired of Labour administrations abusing the democratic process when it comes to active travel policies and their "war on cars".

This is politics and you can't say people weren't telling Labour administrations that it was more than a "small vocal minority' who had problems with the way Labour were managing these policies?

Whether the Tories get anything from this remains to be seen but I suspect a few reputations will get trashed in the process and there will be collateral damage. If the Tories can show (although one suspects they will gerrymandering this whether it exists or not) that Labour administrations did not follow the democratic process when rolling these out then it puts Labour HQ in a real pickle and look what a mess they got into over Uxbridge.

[malumbu]

Sunak was not great on Kuenssberg this morning, or shall I say was evasive as ever.  If he wants to help the most underprivileged in this country then he needs to recognise that many not have a car, and hence supporting active travel and public transport would be great, and that they may live in some of the most poorly insulated properties in the country, to help sort that out, or get the landlord to do it.  So there is a programme to help those on benefit with the latter, so why not say it?

The excitement about reversing 15 minute cities is an odd one, as far as I know it is neither Tory or Labour policy.  The conspiracy theorists have had a hay day on this.  He had therefore abandoned a programme that he never had, must like the seven compartment bins.

Kuenssberg was reasonably on the ball pushing him about Tory boroughs adopting this, ULEZ and Johnson and the like.

Starmer's turn next week.  If I closed my eyes and listened the two leaders sound quite similar.

 

[Spartacus]

2 hours ago, malumbu said:

Sunak was not great on Kuenssberg this morning, or shall I say was evasive as ever.  If he wants to help the most underprivileged in this country then he needs to recognise that many not have a car, and hence supporting active travel and public transport would be great, and that they may live in some of the most poorly insulated properties in the country, to help sort that out, or get the landlord to do it.  So there is a programme to help those on benefit with the latter, so why not say it?

The excitement about reversing 15 minute cities is an odd one, as far as I know it is neither Tory or Labour policy.  The conspiracy theorists have had a hay day on this.  He had therefore abandoned a programme that he never had, must like the seven compartment bins.

Kuenssberg was reasonably on the ball pushing him about Tory boroughs adopting this, ULEZ and Johnson and the like.

Starmer's turn next week.  If I closed my eyes and listened the two leaders sound quite similar.

 

Interesting expression 

"Not many have a car" 

According to the RAC foundation there are 33.27 million cars in the UK  https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility#:~:text=In the United Kingdom%2C there,the end of March 2023.

According to Statista the UK population is 56.33 million https://www.statista.com/statistics/281208/population-of-the-england-by-age-group/

Removing under 18s and over 80s to account for those that don't drive (yes I know some over 80s drive but easy maths) removes 15 million people who may not own cars.

Therefore approximately 48 million people are car driving age and on average each person owns .8 of a car. (statistically speaking) 

Obviously its not as simple as that, some own multiple, some none and some have only 1 car in a family.

However the much touted "not many have a car" is skewed by inner city residents who may not own a car and doesn't represent those further out or outside big metropolitan areas who need a car. 

I can therefore see why declaring war against the war on motorists would be a clever move towards getting voters confidence. 

[malumbu]

I've never talked about a war on motorists.  This is a phrase used by the right wing press.  And capitalised by politicians in their manufactured culture wars.  Join me for a social ride with Southwark LCC and I doubt whether any of them have laid down on a junction and blocked the traffic.  I'm simply saying that some of the less well off will not have a car.  

The ULEZ scrappage scheme has helped those who had to change their vehicles who were more financially challenged.  And there are enough low mileage older petrol cars where you need a car for work, shopping etc and if absolutely necessary school

I know that from personal experience and happy to recommend models.

Hopefully the debate will move onto education, cost of living, NHS, social care, housing, speeding up the asylum application process etc.  Sunak's comments on inflation being a tax were just plain daft. The focus on motoring stuff is plain daft.  A successful distraction but such a small part of the story.

Hooray this thread has morphed into the old Lounge, well done Mal.

[malumbu]

Simply saying that some on low pay/income will not have a car.  For those on low income who may have to change their car to meet environmental standards there are low cost vehicles available and schemes like the scrapage offered by Mayor Khan will help.

This whole "war on motorists" is a term invented by the right wing press and capitalised on by politicians, as part of their phony manufactured culture wars. The quicker we return to the real issues, inflation, health, education, housing, social care and the mess the west has made globally the better.

I've never used the term war on motorists and if you join Southwark LCC on one of their social rides you will not meet people who lay down on the road to block traffic junctions.

But well done Malumbu for recreating the Lounge of old and getting the broader discussion going.  Sunak was pants this morning and referring to inflation as a tax was nonsense.

[malumbu]

Whoops, two similar posts, well two for the price of one.  I had a look to see if anyone had ever proposed 15 minutes cities in the UK and came across the article in Forbes with the lovely title "by railing against 15 minute cities Sunak aligns UKL government with conspiracy theorists.  I couldn't possibly comment.....😃

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2023/09/30/by-railing-against-15-minute-cities-rishi-sunak-aligns-uk-government-with-conspiracy-theory-believers/?sh=79c716ed7906

 

[legalalien]

I googled Southwark and 15 minute city and this was the first thing that came up.

https://londonlivingstreets.com/2020/10/25/the-15-minute-city-a-london-case-study/#:~:text=Going further and supporting the 15-minute city.&text=Following the initial lockdown%2C Southwark,west of the Walworth Road.

The COVID lockdown all seems a distant memory but I’m pretty sure that Living Streets’ Jeremy Leach was acting as a de facto councillor for a bit and the Environmental Scrutiny Commission was all over the 15 minute city (as that’s where I heard about the idea)?

Waltham Forest have a cabinet minister for 15 minute neighbourhoods and I doubt she’s an imaginary character invented by the right wing press https://walthamforestecho.co.uk/2023/06/02/new-council-cabinet-role-to-oversee-15-minute-neighbourhoods/.

(Everything always seems to lead back to Waltham Forest.  I keep thinking of it as a sort of Christiania of London, might have to do a field trip one day. Is it nice?)

I personally find I have plenty to moan about without being drawn into some sort of “socialist conspiracy” theory, the fact there are people out there who are drawn into that stuff isn’t a reason to stifle sensible debate.  (Mind you they probably think they’re sensible….)

Edited October 2, 2023 by legalalien

[Rockets]

Legal - you are right and I am pretty sure I remember councillors lauding the 15-minute city concept as the strategic aim/goal. A bit like Oxford council did https://www.oxford.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/8144/bgp_14_15_minute_cities.pdf so the concept has been thrown around for a while but the Tories are throwing it in to the mix probably to be able to use it as a deflection technique and to point at the disaster that is Paris right now as Mayor Hidalgo tries to turn Paris into the poster-child for 15-minute cities.

 

I watched the politics show as well and three things stood out:

1) Sunak has clearly been told he needs to assert himself more (which he is clearly struggling with) btu was struggling to land his points because Laura K kept interrupting him (probably because the expectation is that he just waffles and repeats the same soundbites over and over again

2) what was also interesting was Wes Streeting when he talked about "as a motorist I worry not about whether my council stops me speeding past my primary school with 20mph limits but the cost of petrol at the pump". Which I wonder is an indication of how Labour will try to counter the Tory narrative and try to distance themselves from the war on motorists - very refreshing to hear a Labour voice admit they do drive!

 

3) But Jon Culshaw summed it up beautifully at the end with his closing impressions of both leaders and how you do their voices and personality. Rishi Sunak: the closest you can get to AI whilst still remaining human and Keir Starmer: more hesitant and in instalments and "now it's time for Songs of Praise...."

[malumbu]

There is plenty of good sense in the concept that most of what we need to survive is relatively close to hand, retail, education, entertainment, faith etc.  That was Britain until the railways led to the new suburban class.

As opposed to say Los Angeles and their three ways and some of our new towns with hubs off a ring road.  Yes I have been to Redditch.

But now this is associated with the conspiracy theorists and weaponised by the Tories.

I  haven't a clue how this can be achieved in an existing urban environment.  So I don't believe any local authority could attempt to achieve this.  Funny how Oxford is used as a supposed example when they actually closed most of their city centre roads 35 years ago, so like a Dulwich Village with spires and a river but no cars.  Difference is there is an urban underclass that can enjoy it too.

I expect that model villages like Saltaire, Bonneville, and Port Sunlight also delivered a 15 minute type concept.  Albeit, certainly in Bourneville a very controlling patriarchy.  Love to hear from some quakers on this view.

It may be useful for planning new communities but that by the O2 hasn't got it right.  They were trying to learn from this with Stratford redevelopment on the brown field site but I expect that failed too, yuppy flats and a ginormous shopping centre.

But as for local authorities controlling us, as say the Cadburys did, I can't see any way that authorities could impose thus.  So Forbes article got it right.

Hats off to Kuenssberg for not letting Sunak off.  She will do the same with Starmer.  Streeting spoke better but please use other examples of the cost of living crisis not a litre of fuel.  Surely the cost of housing and rental market far more important.  

Edited October 2, 2023 by malumbu