Children welcome here?

[L15ecr]

When I was younger my mum and dad used to take the 5 kids for lunch every sunday and we had to sit at the table and interact with each other. If we were to leave the table, be it at home or when out, we had to ask permission. I now have neices and nephews and my family try and work to the same kind of upbringing. I think some people these days are of the opinion that because their lives revolve round their children everybody elses should too. I am happy to sit in a pub etc if there are children there but do not expect to have to listen to unruley kids. As such, there are some places that I would like to go that I avoid like the plague!

Also, to add another bit in to the debate....I moved to London last year and I am utterly disgusted at the number of parents that expect you to get up to offer their child a seat on the bus. Some of the looks you get from people are hilarious. In Scotland, as a child you are expected to get off your seat for adults or if you are too small to stand your parents put you on their knee.

[MissmarnX]

Hi my name is marnie I was wondering if there was any jobs for me and my friend Georgia we are very responsible teenagers and love working with children and all sorts of other jobs. F you have any other jobs please contact me [email protected]

Me and Georgia are both 13

[BrandNewGuy]

El Pibe Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As it happens I've often cracked open a can or two

> at the Nursery's summer party, christmas party etc

> etc, with children present and everyfink.

Indeed, a decade and more ago the other half and I went to a Mother Goose Nursery summer party and downed quite a few. We kept the nursery assistants pretty well supplied too and when the 'party' broke up, we decamped with them to The Castle for the evening. Happy days :-)

[honeybee79]

I don't take my mini Beast (2.5) to restaurants because he can't be trusted to behave properly. The odd trip to Pizza Ezpress, perhaps. Or the Victoria. But I wouldn't enjoy my own meal out if I was having to constantly monitor his behaviour and chase him around so I would rather get a babysitter.

Cafes are easier because I can always down my coffee and bundle him out!

He's too big for a buggy really but I still put him in it to get to nursery in the morning. If I didn't, I'd be about an hour late to work on a daily basis. He's 2.5 but big, so if he decides not to walk it's not that easy to throw him over your shoulder and carry him.

I always thought that East Dulwich was very child friendly! I definitely recommend the Dish & Spoon in Nunhead for kids and also the Old Nun's Head. Both are very welcoming.

[likansuk269]

why don't you take the kids to Sainsbury where I have seen kids inside the store playind on skates,skateboards,playing tag,playing with remote control cars,this seems like a nice place for the kids to play,there is plenty of food available all day ,a bakery,a deli counter,a coffee bar,a hot food counter,and a big car park to park your off road vehicles

[funkychick]

I have no kids ( thankfully ) but I have no problem children being in cafe/pub under one condition they behave and are quiet.

As an adult I do not want to eat in a place that has children running around and being a damn right nuisance after all if I did that you would likely call 999

The problem with "some" parents around here is that they think they are superior and invincible because they have offspring.

How many places do you want anyway to be child friendly? in my experience there seems to be quiet a few already!

[Nigello]

Saffron - There is no universal rule that says people have to take their cumbersome and bulky prams/scooters etc and then expect there to be somewhere for them to be placed. It's like people who drop litter, saying 'well, there's no bin nearby'. Common sense should rule. Don't expect there to be a place for you and everyone else's pram/buggy/scooter. Anyway, I doubt very much that prams get nicked in broad daylight in SE22 from outside chi-chi cafes.

[srisky]

funkychick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As an adult I do not want to eat in a place that

> has children running around and being a damn right

> nuisance after all if I did that you would likely

> call 999

>

The reason 999 would be called is that it is not age-appropriate behaviour for an adult, whereas for a 2y old it would be. Children are not mini-adults, they are emotionally, intellectually, hormonally different. Therefore, to expect toddlers to sit quietly at a table is unrealistic and unfair on the child. However, (dare I suggest) they are a part of society and will eventually turn into cynical, miserable adults like the rest of us who can not tolerate anyone else that does not conform to our version of 'normal behaviour'. Therefore, allowing them to partake in and experience some of societies rituals, such as eating socially, particularly with their peers, teaches them several social skills. Some children are naturally more passive/placid/introverted so may be more amenable to sitting at a table for longer than those that are more extroverted (no, this is not a euphemism for bad-behaviour).

I agree, having children running around in inappropriate areas is not safe for them or others (e.g. the Sainsbury's example given previously). Therefore, it is useful to have child-friendly places for those with children and those without can avoid them - believe it or not, even those with children like to enjoy some child-free time occasionally. Similarly, those with children can/should avoid child-unfriendly areas.

Re: children in buggies - there are any number of reasons why apparently older children are in buggies. I know a lovely 3y old with cerebral palsy affecting her right arm and leg. She walks with a limp and falls after running a few metres. If you glanced at her whilst she sat in her buggy you would have no idea of any of this but perhaps you would roll your eyes, tut just loud enough for her mother to hear and hurry past them like they were a nuisance.

On a slightly different note & relating to another thread in this section, I walked the length of Barry Road yesterday and stood aside to let people coming towards me pass at various points where the pavement is only one person wide. I let 9 people pass: 3 had buggies, 1 had a dog, 5 had neither; not one said thank you - some people have a sense of entitlement & some don't; some are rude & some aren't but I don't think it has anything to do with children, dogs etc. It's the individual.

[BrandNewGuy]

srisky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Therefore, to expect

> toddlers to sit quietly at a table is unrealistic

> and unfair on the child. However, (dare I

> suggest) they are a part of society and will

> eventually turn into cynical, miserable adults

> like the rest of us who can not tolerate anyone

> else that does not conform to our version of

> 'normal behaviour'. Therefore, allowing them to

> partake in and experience some of societies

> rituals, such as eating socially, particularly

> with their peers, teaches them several social

> skills.

No, in those countries mentioned previously (Italy and France), the difference is that children don't just eat with their peers - they eat with their family, and often their extended family. Kids in buggies and 'family friendly' play areas are not partaking in society's rituals - they're being partitioned off into either not socialising at all with others or only with those of their own age. Which is why their social skills are and will continue to be wanting.

[srisky]

Of course interacting with their peers develops social skill, plus their peers will have parents so they will be eating with adults, too. They are not stuck on a 'kids-only' table. It's nonsense to suggest that interacting with those of a similar age leaves their social skills wanting - what about children at nurseries, school? Maybe they should come to the work place and eat in the staff canteen so they know how to behave when they enter the work force. Better still, send them down the mines again!

I don't understand what your comment about kids in buggies has to do with social skills.

There is a general misconception about families on the continent. The geographical distribution of the extended family, the structure of the day, the time at which they eat are all different to here. The toddlers there do not sit quietly at the table joining in the adult conversation, in fact their normal toddler behaviour is better tolerated (perhaps even embraced?) by the adults there than by those here - they don't worry about elbows on the table, talk when you are talked to etc. My previous comments refer to under 3 year olds, not school age children. The latter should be able to sit and eat properly at the table during meal times.

[L15ecr]

I have to say I don't think running about cafes, pubs and restaurants is particularly safe either given that people are carrying hot food and drink and glass

[srisky]

Yes, I agree.

However, if a caf? chooses to welcome children and parents are willing to take them there then both parties should be vigilant. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a way to guarantee an accident won't happen (unless only cold foods/drinks are served!) and parents should accept this or not frequent these places with their children if they can not sit safely or play in a designated area.

[BrandNewGuy]

srisky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Of course interacting with their peers develops

> social skill, plus their peers will have parents

> so they will be eating with adults, too. They are

> not stuck on a 'kids-only' table. It's nonsense

> to suggest that interacting with those of a

> similar age leaves their social skills wanting -

> what about children at nurseries, school? Maybe

> they should come to the work place and eat in the

> staff canteen so they know how to behave when they

> enter the work force. Better still, send them

> down the mines again!

Riiight... er, back to what we were talking about, most children these days don't interact with non-family older children (or younger ones when they themselves get older), adults, old people etc. Of course nursery will give a child some social skills, but it's only a small slice of the whole social spectrum. Nursery is mainly a parental convenience - the 'socialisation' (and educational) aspect is often talked about loudly to hide that fact.

> I don't understand what your comment about kids in

> buggies has to do with social skills.

A kid strapped into a buggy does not have a chance to interact properly with others. It's also a parental convenience not a means of the child getting out and about in the world.

[srisky]

Geez, it was just a tongue-in-cheek comment about the workplace/mines.

I thought your earlier post suggested they should be eating meals with the extended family, as per the continent. Now you state that children don't interact with non-family children/adults/elderly. So in what context do you expect 2-3y olds to interact with the latter, if not with peers and their parents or should it be with just childless adult friends of parents? Genuine question, as your arguments seem to suggest different things.

'nursery is a parental convenience...' - a whole other thread.

'buggy...also a parental convenience...' - I think examples have already been given as to why it is more than just convenience. It seems quite judgemental to assess the level of social interaction a child has with their parents or others based on them being pushed in a buggy. It's just a snapshot of their lives.

Incidentally, have you tried carrying a tired 2y old for any length of time? If you have, then you have more stamina and strength than me and are clearly a better person for it!

[Saffron]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron - There is no universal rule that says

> people have to take their cumbersome and bulky

> prams/scooters etc and then expect there to be

> somewhere for them to be placed.

I never suggested that such a rule existed, nor that parents should have any expectation of such.

> It's like people

> who drop litter, saying 'well, there's no bin

> nearby'. Common sense should rule. Don't expect

> there to be a place for you and everyone else's

> pram/buggy/scooter.

I NEVER suggested that expectation: That's your own projection of other people's expectations.

(Personally, if there isn't room to safely place a buggy, then I would look for somewhere else to go. THAT is common sense.)

> Anyway, I doubt very much that

> prams get nicked in broad daylight in SE22 from

> outside chi-chi cafes.

Yes, sadly it does happen.

[Saffron]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

> A kid strapped into a buggy does not have a chance

> to interact properly with others.

> It's also a

> parental convenience not a means of the child

> getting out and about in the world.

Disagree. Just because you have a buggy with you, doesn't mean your child rides in it all the time. When we go on long jaunts, I'd say Little Saff does about 50:50 walking:buggy. There are times where it's simply safer for her to be in a buggy, particularly in high traffic areas or on public transport.

For many people a buggy is BOTH a convenience and a means of getting out in the world, especially if you don't have a car!

Personally, due to back and wrist problmes I really struggle to hold or carry my daughter for any length of time, should safety dictate it necessary. So, at 3.5 yo, we still take the buggy out with us a lot. Glad to know I can enjoy the rosey glow of other people's judgement on my back, particularly with summer shaping up to be a washout.

[Chillaxed]

People who comment with (such) certainty on others parenting are in my experience tools.

[oimissus]

couldn't agree more Chillaxed! Pleased to say that Mr Oi took our 3.5 year old out in the pram yesterday, she was poorly so not up for a long walk but they wanted to get out. Hope that's OK with everyone? No? Tough.

What is this 'parental convenience' anyway?

[glasshalffull]

Our own children are of course the most important things in our lives but we need to remember that they are going to spend a lot of their time in others company. Bringing a kid up is partly about preparing them for the real world and the real world is a git of a place!!

If we are honest with ourselves when we make parenting decisions we sometimes are making them for 'parental convenience' i.e. even if we are not 100% sure we are making the right decision for our child if it makes our life easier at that point in time we choose the easy option. There is nothing wrong with this as long as we don't make all decisions in this way or deal with long term issues in this way. If you don't face up to an issue at some point it is likely that you are storing up issues for the future which is no good for parent, child or wider world

Not sure if this post makes me a tool or not?

[roblay]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> henryb Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yes children do eat better in restaurants but

> that

> > is probably because the food is better.

>

> henryb I now wish there was a "like" button on

> this forum, similar to that of Facebook, just so I

> can "like" this one comment alone.

>

> Louisa.

I would say the same for all 3 of your above comments Louisa - intelligent and reasonable. Thanks, Rob

[Anna27]

Srisky well said, I have spent two weeks in Greece dining out with the family my 2 children included and its been refreshing, it's hard to compare the two countries on an equal footing but we have been made to feel welcomed, there have been some tantrums and tears and my 19month old has entertained a few tables with his inquisitive nature.

Comments that basically children should been seen and not heard in public places is unrealistic you are setting yourself up for disappointment surely it's harder to maintain this aggrievance, let it go! Try a different tactic engage with these children they are part of society. Maybe you should do a bit of research, find out what should be realistically expected of and under 5 year old then maybe you can have a better informed view. Why be bitter what a waste of time...

[Dopamine1979]

This thread degenerated into a bit of a general brawl.

However it would be useful to know of toddler friendly places (with a 19 month old) for lunch in the E.D area.

So far I've got:

The Dish and the spoon

The Old Nun's head.

[Jeremy]

Victoria Inn (during the day) is very baby/child friendly.

[Bonfire2010]

Aneto is child friendly, although it can get a bit cramped. It's also next to Goose Green playground which is handy.

[malcolmchurch]

Have any of you considered Wetherspoons pubs? The Capitol has a play area and there is a huge garden at The Fox on the Hill