Children welcome here?

[????]

Absolute garbage - The old children behaving themselves better in other countries cliche....i've family in Italy and lived in Spain and if you think young children behave themselves better in those countries you are in cloud cukoo loud...they are also generally out and about far, far later than kids over here.

People are just far mor family friendly there that's all and the kids are tolereated

It's rubbish that they are better behaved and under control. LOL rubbish!

[Louisa]

Quids I agree to a point. On various holidays abroad I've noted both well behaved children and others less so, but as you say the general acceptance of families sharing the same environment as adults makes it seem as though its less of an issue. It only becomes an issue over here because we have such a polarised opinion towards who frequents these establishments.

On a recent holiday to Gran Canaria I noticed that many of the various shopping centres with bars/cafes and restaurants were extremely family friendly by day, and as evening approached a lot of these places transformed into adult bars with people consuming alcohol and the families heading home. It only becomes an issue here because adults want the space to be child/family free all of the time, and families want the space to be family friendly all of the time. And so we end up with some establishments taking one route and others taking the other, with no happy medium.

Louisa.

[henryb]

I lived in France for a year and didn't notice children behaving any better. The main difference other peoples attitude to children: here children are mostly considered an irritant to be avoided and at best tolerated and if a child misbehaves you get sneers and tuts; there families are always welcome, children are considered part of community and if one misbehavse people are understanding and helpful.

Yes children do eat better in restaurants but that is probably because the food is better.

[Louisa]

henryb Wrote:

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> Yes children do eat better in restaurants but that

> is probably because the food is better.

henryb I now wish there was a "like" button on this forum, similar to that of Facebook, just so I can "like" this one comment alone.

Louisa.

[stacey-lyn]

Apple Dust, The Old Nun's Head and the Clock House are definitely places where "toddlers are welcomed rather than seen as a hassle" and imho not to the detriment of other customers. However, some people find children, no matter how old or well behaved, irritants and prefer child free venues and though I don't subscribe to that, I do get it. There's no pleasing everyone all the time.

The staff at these two pubs are very accommodating.

As for the debate re: national characteristics that bring about well-behaved children, I'm not convinced but (if you can get past the beret and cliches) this woman is

[Saffron]

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well i'm sorry i have had that and you have to

> grit your teeth and not allow them to get into bad

> habits - we did it with my step son as he got used

> to walkign everywhere very quickly and

> uncomplainingly - you're not seriously

> suggesting 4 - 5 year olds go in buggies - they

> will be a primary school at that age - not wanting

> to get all 4 Yorkshiremen about it but i was

> regualrly expected to walk to mile to primary

> school from my house with either my parents or

> older children at the age of 4.5 - 5.

While it's nice for you that you had such an ambulatory upbringing, as long as children are well-behaved and buggies are properly folded when necessary, it's totally up to each family to use them for as long as they need to do so. Indeed when using public transport and black cabs it's often much safer (even for an older child) to be in a buggy. If I can borrow a phrase from another forumite, maybe just loosen your "judgy pants" a bit. xx

Edited to add, come to think of it, parents of badly behaved children probably need buggies even more -- somewhere to strap in the little mischeif makers while having a nice cuppa!

[Saffron]

thestylist Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think stepping in and 'engaging' with children

> is something I'll steer clear of after a recent

> incident at the park.

>

> Two small girls were fighting over a scooter and

> were really screaming st each other with no parent

> in sight it seemed. Their older brother ran over

> and was actively encouraging them to start hitting

> each other.

> All the other parents in the playground were

> looking fairly horrified but no one was doing

> anything.

>

> I decided to walk over as there was no mother or

> father coming across to them, and it wasn't

> obvious who they were. All I said to the older boy

> was 'can you go get your mummy please'. By me

> stepping in the girls had stopped fighting.

>

> However i turned around to see the mother now

> right behind me, and I explained they were

> fighting etc. She said ' I want them to sort it

> out between themselves'. Obviously she was ok with

> them punching each other in public. She was

> annoyed I had done something but they were around

> 3 or 4 years old.

>

> Now I just look the other way. Unless I know the

> person, I wont step in from now on.

Oh dear, how awkward. But I think you did the right thing, and I hope it won't stop you from doing similar in the future. I've intervened in similar scenarios by saying general things like, "No fighting in the park, please!" Hopefully it helps parents in general to control their children if all adults are toeing a similar line in public. (Or perhaps I'm deluded... come to think of it, probably deluded ;-) )

[Cyclemonkey]

Saffron i'm sorry to sound judgemental but seriously are you really suggesting that people regularly put 4 and 5 year olds in to pushchairs and wheel them around - you are havign a laugh surely - 4 and 5 years olds are often at school and surely can walk around - i understand small children can be a pain and have tantrums and not like walking etc.. etc.. (having brought up a child win London and never had a car i do understand) But if you put a yelling 4 or 5 year old into a buggy because they don't want to walk you are surely creating massive rod for your own back.

Im terms of folding buggies away - fine if the kid is in it - eg the place doesn't have a highchair and they can't use the adult chair but i was referring the empty buggies jsut left willynilly in places.

Buses the same however seeing as the "pushchair space" is actually for disabled customers parents should always be ready to fold up the pushchair to free up the space if needed.

[Sue]

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>But if you put a yelling 4 or 5 year

> old into a buggy because they don't want to walk

> you are surely creating massive rod for your own

> back.

>

>

xxxxxx

I have in the past put a yelling 3-4 year old into a buggy in the interests of actually getting her and her 6 year old sister to school and pre-school in time.

They both normally go by bike but there's no way I'm taking them by bike! The 6 year old cycles and the 4 year old has a balance bike or else goes on the back of mum or granny's (the other granny's) bike.

A twenty minute walk first thing in the morning with a grumpy child is not my idea of fun. I think that's quite a long walk for a small child with little legs who can't walk as fast as her older sister.

ETA: Making a big isue of it is hardly a great start to a small child's day, is it?

[uncleglen]

The New Leatheren Bottle on the Bracknell to Maidenhead Road has a playground attached.

[Anna27]

Henryb I could not agree more! Completely true I often find myself getting annoyed by the assumption that a tantrum = bad behaviour my 19month old often throws them...yesterday he threw one because I removed a toy car tire from his mouth, I insisted he held my hand in the road and daddy went to the toilet without him! Often the quickest way to end it is by distraction or if its gone past that stage ignoring him, yes letting him thrash it out on the floor. It's not ignoring bad behaviour it's often the quickest way for a child to express that the're not happy with a situation, they haven't yet developed the emotional capacity to deal with their feelings. It's a learning process there's no quick fix! It often not so black and white.

I'm half Greek and in Greece children are welcomed and interacted with by the whole community, instead of hostility they are greeted with warmth and smiles. We as a country could learn a lot from France and other countries on how we treat children.

[Curmudgeon]

I must be living in a different east dulwich. I've always found it extremely child friendly to those who accept that children and their behaviour are their parents' responsibility and that their presence should not inconvenience or annoy other customers.

[KylaKevin]

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[Clare11]

I've just discovered that 'the montage' in forest hill (it's not THAT far..) has an amazing playroom near their garden. Indoors, comfy with loads of toys.

Easy to watch little ones whilst sipping a coffee on the back verandah. All undercover.

Also a great cafe with range of antiques for sale. Brilliant.

Little man and I are very impressed.

[Saffron]

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron i'm sorry to sound judgemental but

> seriously are you really suggesting that people

> regularly put 4 and 5 year olds in to pushchairs

> and wheel them around

No. If you re-read my post, you will find that I'm suggesting that the age at which each family chooses to use a buggy is up to that individual family to decide.

(I was also suggesting that your judgy pants are a bit tight. ;-) )

> ... But if you put a yelling 4 or 5 year

> old into a buggy because they don't want to walk

> you are surely creating massive rod for your own

> back.

One person's rod is another's fairy magic wand.

>

> Im terms of folding buggies away - fine if the kid

> is in it - eg the place doesn't have a highchair

> and they can't use the adult chair but i was

> referring the empty buggies jsut left willynilly

> in places.

Yup, that's annoying to other buggy users as well, and it's nothing to do with the age of the child.

>

> Buses the same however seeing as the "pushchair

> space" is actually for disabled customers parents

> should always be ready to fold up the pushchair to

> free up the space if needed.

Yes, of course, but again not related to age or behaviour of the child. That fact that some people with pushchairs don't use them with consideration, doesn't mean that everyone with a 4-yo in a pushchair is incosiderately creating havoc. So if they want to use a pushchair, fine. I going to go out on a limb and guess that most parents are just trying to do the best they can, and (as always, no?) a few nut jobs* are making it hard on the rest of us.

* Of couse it could also be that they were quite reasonable people once, but their children drove them to insanity...

[Nigello]

Buggies and scooters are welcome - welcome to be left at the doorstep or on the patio. Trying to lug a minibus-sized pram into a small premises that serves scaldingly hot drinks is really not a great idea. It's common sense and regard for others, two principles that seem to be less apparent in SE22 and elsewhere.

[bornagain]

When our's were small we thought 'child-friendly' described places where we could blend in and eat without stress (Wagamama was a particular favourite). We certainly did not expect special play areas or freedom to roam. How time change (and my younger child is only just leaving primary school?)

[UncleBen]

Absolutely agree, Nigello.

[Saffron]

Nigello Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Buggies and scooters are welcome - welcome to be

> left at the doorstep or on the patio. Trying to

> lug a minibus-sized pram into a small premises

> that serves scaldingly hot drinks is really not a

> great idea. It's common sense and regard for

> others, two principles that seem to be less

> apparent in SE22 and elsewhere.

Ah, yes, leave them on the doorstep, where they are easily nicked?

[Dodo1]

Yes nice place but it would be nice if they had food!

[Dearheart]

bornagain Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When our's were small we thought 'child-friendly'

> described places where we could blend in and eat

> without stress (Wagamama was a particular

> favourite). We certainly did not expect special

> play areas or freedom to roam. How time change

> (and my younger child is only just leaving primary

> school?)

I'm 23 years old now & this reminds me very much of how it felt back when I was younger. But then again, I was a very well behaved kid, brought up single-handedly by my mother. The attitude of some parents these days who demand special treatment is embarrassing to me & is going to set a bad example for their children.

I'm still in shock that some children are being pushed around or strapped in buggies at the age 5. Just wow...

[Saffron]

Dearheart Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm still in shock that some children are being

> pushed around or strapped in buggies at the age 5.

> Just wow...

Is that a real life observation of an incident(s) you observed, or are you just getting that from Cyclemonkey's offhand comments in this thread that children 3 and over shouldn't be in buggies?

[DulwichFox]

Strange that people are happy to take their children to pubs...

But would they find it acceptable to take their kids to the nursery and crack open a can or two..

Foxy.

[El Pibe]

Well I often wipe my child's arse, would I be happy to do so on your table in a pub?

Too bloody right; stupid, specious, logically fallacious arguments would deserve nothing less!!

As it happens I've often cracked open a can or two at the Nursery's summer party, christmas party etc etc, with children present and everyfink.

[*Bob*]

I like a ham sandwich.

But would I find it acceptable to have my penis repeatedly slammed in the fridge door until it went blue and fell off?

Case proved.