Children welcome here?

[Apple Dust]

Hi,

Does anyone else get the feeling it is time for a bit of a shake up of the East Dulwich cafe scene? Anyone else fed up of being over charged for what amounts to substandard food and coffee often served in a pretty unfriendly manner? Is there any creative space where families with young children can just hang out, children can take part in workshops and buggies and toddlers are welcomed rather than seen as a hassle?

Have a read of my new blog and let me know your thoughts.

http://appledustuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/children-welcome-here.html

Thanks!

[Saffron]

TDLP used to have a playspace/cafe on the edge of Nunhead near Brockley Cross. This was a temporary space for them as they were a newly formed social enterprise. I don't think they have a new permanent location, but they can probably be found at a number of local summer festies. http://www.tdlp.co.uk/

Nice blog, btw. Sadly not an unusual experience (w or w/o children, lots of places are overpriced with rubbish service). ED a victim of its own (babyboom) success? Being populated by lots of families with children is definitely not the same as being child-friendly. Next time try the Cafe in Hilly Fields park (SE4), or Dish and the Spoon cafe in Nunhead? xx

[northlondoner]

There's this place where the kids can run riot and express themselves to their hearts' content - and they even do kid-friendly food.

It's called home.

[wee quinnie]

Error in your blogpost - should be 'South East London" rather than "South West London".

[EPB]

We only take our grandson to the Duck Egg Cafe if we've got plenty of time to spare, because it's so difficult to prise him away from the play area.

[haruki]

The one time I ate in duck egg cafe put me off for good. It was like eating in a creche. The noise from the play area was ridiculous! But that's fine, as there are many other places without play areas. I don't have kids, but my perception has never been that there is a lack of kid-friendly venues. This is particularly so during the week.

From your blog it looks like you went to the Actress and the Bishop. There's often no room for people without buggies at the weekend, so I don't know what the pubs could really do to be more accommodating. I'd have thought the Herne or the Plough would have more space.

[Jessie]

I don't get this expectation that eateries should welcome babies and children. It's nice when they do, but I would never assume that they did, especially at peak times. I find parks are a good place to meet up with other parents, and cafes attached to parks more than able to handle children and families.

[Louisa]

I find the opposite true. I agree most places around here are overpriced, but I'd argue more are child friendly these days than adult friendly. Also, as wee quinnie rightly points out, this is south east London, not south west, despite many people's aspirations.

Louisa.

[Penguin68]

This is an old one, of course, but in e.g. Italy and France children are warmly welcomed into many cafes and restaurants, and tend to behave in them impecably - no running around, screaming etc. etc. They are treated as adult spaces where people are expected to behave in an adult manner - whatever their calendar age. There are dedicated (and often well run) play areas in municipalities, often in small parks, where children are encouraged to act as children. They may have ice-cream or other vendors (in bigger one) there, but I have never, as I have in England, come across a pub equivalent with a playground attached (see discussions passim about the Herne and what they were doing with their play area).

In England we indulge children and are happy, as parents, that they should act childishly wherever they are. And many establishments which wish to cater to an adult trade (where they make their money) choose not to 'child-friendly-up' their offer.

I am more than happy (my children are long grown up) to avoid British eateries that 'welcome' children - but have no qualms if I see children in Fance or Italy at table.

[mika1336]

Well said penguin68, agree with you 100%

[Mike Dodd]

Ditto Penguin

[Cyclemonkey]

Absolutely agree. I definitely think children should be as involved in the adult world - as children we were taken to restaurants, pubs (where it was allowed - in the 1980s it was often common for children to be confined to the family room or the beer garden) and other events. My parents never ever agreed with the ideas of "childrens tables" of "childrens menus" you ate with the adults, ate what they ate, ate when they ate and were expected to behave - children need to be integrated into the adult world not treated as special little beings.

I absolutely welcome people with small children into local cafes, pubs, restaurants etc.. BUT do not expect me to be delighted or amused if your little darling throws a tantrum or spend the whole time running around the place getting under everyones feet. i also reserve the right as another adult to remonstrate with your child if they do something dangerous or stupid - like the little darling a few weeks ago who ran to hard into our table my drink was upset.

[Siduhe]

I thought the most telling bit of the blog was this:

The family friendly zone was full. So for over 1 hour we tried hard to chat over the speakers and compete with a group of seven men who had front row seats for the Rugby.

I think it's tough for a business which has obviously tried to accommodate two different sets of patrons, with totally different needs, to then be told they need to be more family friendly. If I was one of rugby fans, I'd equally be frustrated at having the sound turned down to accommodate families in other parts of the establishment (appreciate that isn't what the OP wanted or has asked for). But I do think if there's a family friendly zone and you have to sit elsewhere, you don't necessarily expect the rest of the venue to be set up the same way.

[Sue]

I agree too, penguin68.

ETA: And Cyclemonkey.

[Cyclemonkey]

Oh and another thing - buggies - if you have them in the cafe/pub for the love of god fold them up it's really annoying having to do a buggy assult course to get to the toilets/bar.

Finally if your child is around 3 or over and has no walking impairements i would suggest they don't need to be in a buggy

[Sue]

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Finally if your child is around 3 or over and has

> no walking impairements i would suggest they don't

> need to be in a buggy

xxxxxxx

If you had a child between, say, 3 and 5 whining and refusing to walk, believe me you'd shove them in a buggy in a blink of an eye :))

[Cyclemonkey]

Well i'm sorry i have had that and you have to grit your teeth and not allow them to get into bad habits - we did it with my step son as he got used to walkign everywhere very quickly and uncomplainingly - you're not seriously suggesting 4 - 5 year olds go in buggies - they will be a primary school at that age - not wanting to get all 4 Yorkshiremen about it but i was regualrly expected to walk to mile to primary school from my house with either my parents or older children at the age of 4.5 - 5.

[El Pibe]

Our child took to scooter at 2 and bike at 3, hasn't been near a buggy since, so quite agree on that count.

Can't understand why anyone would want to keep those monstrosities going longer than necessary.

I do feel that the odd annoying behaviour by a child in places rather colours the experience against all the parents who are mindful of their child's vagaries and are sensitive to others' experiences. When all you hear is the incessant whinging it makes you wonder why you bother.

Of course a few persistently whinging arseholes shouldn't colour ones experiences of the silent majority who are understanding of the difficulties parents face....etc ad nauseum...

[Sue]

Sometimes needs must :))

ETA: For example a twenty minute walk to pre-school/school with kids who are used to going on their bikes with the other granny :))

[Cyclemonkey]

Oh yeah i think the majority of people are always are ok. I think maybe what we have lost is the solidarity of adults in public palces. I am quite happy to remonstrate with shildren if i see they doing something dangerous or just plain annoying and also talk to them and engage with them etc.. We seem to have lost this idea of all adults being responsible for children and i think that is a shame. People feel for whatever reason they cannot remonstrate with rowdy or naughty children in public place or indeed engagement with them and therefore they get frustrated by bad behaviour and take it out in the parents.

i think it does us all good when adults (all adults not just the parents of the individual children) learn to take charge of a space and welcome children into it by engaging with them but also setting the boundaries. No wonder parents feel stressed and isolated with other adults in the community are not prepared to engage with children or help them set the boundaries they need.

I think these days parent can see parenting as their sole job and it makes them unhappy and stressed. Recently i was out with a group of friends and one friend of a friend (who i had met ina fair few occasions) was there with her young daughter - she wanted to go to the loo and as her mum was eating and in an awkward place at the table i offered to take the little girl to the ladies. Her mum refused my offer and made a big deal of the fact "mummy" was going to take this child to the loo. I felt this was very odd - firsly that she didn't trust me and secondly instilling in her daughter that Mummy will always subugate her needs to those of her daughters - not a good example to set i think.

[Twirly]

I hear what you are saying Cyclemonkey, but I suspect that adults don?t engage with children they don?t know because of the fear of a) being suspected of being a paedophile or b) getting grief from the parent for interfering. And to be honest, why should another adult get involved if the parent is there ? the parent should be sorting out any bad behaviour!

If you mean another adult known to the parent and child, as in your example, that?s different. I don?t have children myself, but have always asked friends with children their permission to tell the child off if I deem it necessary, and they?ve all said yes with enthusiasm (I?d feel odd doing it in their presence if I hadn?t asked permission first though). The parents then know that I?m looking out for the welfare of their child, and they can relax a bit more.

[Cyclemonkey]

Ah you see i disagree i have told off children not known to me on the bus and in other places. Just this morning i asked a young lad to stop playing music outloud on his mobile cos it was annoying everyone and last night i told a very young child (around 5 or 6) to stop pressing the bell over and over.

Once i did get grief from a parent about telling off her child but seeing as i was telling off the child for industriously smearing boiled sweets on to my coat in full sight of me and his mother i felt within my rights to tell him off and asked the mother if she refused to keep her child under control perhaps she'd like to pay my dry cleaning bill instead

[thestylist]

I think stepping in and 'engaging' with children is something I'll steer clear of after a recent incident at the park.

Two small girls were fighting over a scooter and were really screaming st each other with no parent in sight it seemed. Their older brother ran over and was actively encouraging them to start hitting each other.

All the other parents in the playground were looking fairly horrified but no one was doing anything.

I decided to walk over as there was no mother or father coming across to them, and it wasn't obvious who they were. All I said to the older boy was 'can you go get your mummy please'. By me stepping in the girls had stopped fighting.

However i turned around to see the mother now right behind me, and I explained they were fighting etc. She said ' I want them to sort it out between themselves'. Obviously she was ok with them punching each other in public. She was annoyed I had done something but they were around 3 or 4 years old.

Now I just look the other way. Unless I know the person, I wont step in from now on.

[PSJ]

There is a gap in the market in E.D. for a family/toddler friendly cafe. But there isn't a lot of space. I'd recommend that whoever ends up with The Mag uses that big restaurant space during the day as a cafe type area. Lots of space, near lots of family homes and also Heber School. Sure, switch back to being a pub or restaurant in the evening, but during weekdays, a lot of business could be generated.

Probably some licensing reason why it can't happen, but still...

[James]

Yet another person to totally agree with Penguin 68! I avoid kid-friendly places like the plague as unfortunately so many parents in this country have this weird attitude that their little darlings are perfectly entitled to run riot and annoy other people to their heart's content. As Penguin says, in France and Italy children are welcomed but expected to behave. Only wish things were the same here.