Dangerous drivers everywhere!!

[Earl Aelfheah]

You can’t discuss dangerous driving without the usual suspects banging on about bicycles. It’s really, really tedious. Road safety isn’t a football game. You don’t have to constantly cheer for your ‘team’. How can a serious response to someone tearing round a park in a 2 ton vehicle nearly 50 mph be - ‘yeah but forget that, focus on people using a 10 kg vehicle, who I think could be pushing 20, that’s the more pressing issue here’

[first mate]

Earl, most of us have agreed dangerous drivers should be dealt with. This is obvious and I really do not believe anyone here supports cars driving dangerously, exceeding speed limits, jumping red light, driving through pedestrian crossings is a good thing. Laws are in place and should be used to apply penalties.

But, surely it makes sense for speed limits to be adhered to by all vehicles, in parks or on the roads? Damage from a collision with a bike may not be as great as with a car but it will still hurt, may still maim or exceptionally, kill and surely we don't want any of that, do we?

Speed limits are successfully applied to all other vehicles/road users in some other countries, so it can work. 
 
Perhaps organisations like LCC and Southwark's council funded cycling tutorials and rides are advising cyclists to stick to speed limits, to stop at red lights and not cycle on pavements, as to do otherwise is anti-social. I am not aware if this is happening, do you know?

Edited January 25 by first mate

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 hours ago, first mate said:

But, surely it makes sense for speed limits to be adhered to by all vehicles, in parks or on the roads?

There is a thread on speed limits for a bicycles. In fact two, because you’re pushing it on the LTN one too. I get it, your focus is on a tiny number of bicycles that pedal too quickly. Could we perhaps have one thread that focuses on the much bigger issue of high powered heavy vehicles, which regularly speed and are killing and injuring thousands of people? Just one? 

Because it’s really no good saying you care about it, but don’t really want to leave any space to talk about it. The constant deflection is so unhelpful.

Edited January 25 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

Okay, so what do you want to change? Do you want stiffer penalties for car drivers that break the law? Do you want more cameras installed to catch them? Do you want the whole of London to be 20mph, but only apply to car drivers? What else do you want to do? 

[Earl Aelfheah]

DfT stats suggest 85% of motor vehicles drive faster than the speed limit in 20mph zones. That’s totally unacceptable. If you’re exercised by the tiny number of people on a 10kg pedal powered vehicle travelling at speeds in excess of 20, you should be enraged by the much bigger numbers doing it in a 2 ton, high-powered vehicle. So let’s start there. I would like to see far more enforcement and stiff penalties. I would also like to see some of the technology currently only deployed on electric hire scooters (geo-fencing + speed limiters), applied to cars. I would like strict regulations on the size, bonnet height and weight of non-commercial vehicles and charging regimens which also strongly discourage the arms race for ever bigger, heavier and higher fronted cars (which are so much more dangerous than say a standard saloon. And generally I would question why we need non commercial vehicles upwards of 300 horse power in our cities. I would again use the tax / charging regimes to disincentive use of these dangerous, unnecessary vanity vehicles.

…And I would support removing motor vehicles from many more areas. Expanding pedestrian spaces / widening pavements, and creating more segregated cycling spaces to protect people from having to interact with high powered heavy machinery.

Lastly, I would encourage greater investment in public transport (although it’s a bit of a cop out to say that, as who wouldn’t)

Edited January 25 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

So really you want to squeeze and fine all but a few car owners and force them to use bicycles of some description.

In terms of weight classes do all your preferred stipulations also apply to electric cars?

I would not have an issue with speed limiters in town.

On the basis that your main objection seems to be about car speed and potential for damage, given size/weight, if all/majority of cars could be speed limited in town to keep them within designated limits, is there a need for the other stipulations?

Do you use cars...ever?

Edited January 25 by first mate

[Rockets]

37 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

If you’re exercised by the tiny number of people on a 10kg pedal powered vehicle travelling at speeds in excess of 20, you should be enraged by the much bigger numbers doing it in a 2 ton, high-powered vehicle.

Has anyone said they're not enraged by that? Most on here from our side of the fence are able to acknowledge the problems cars and other vehicles pose. It just seems that when the same scrutiny is applied to bikes and the increasing problems posed by them to pedestrians then the pro-cycle lobby gets really irate. It seems we are pragmatic and balanced and others less so.

Edited January 25 by Rockets

[Rockets]

5 hours ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

yeah but forget that, focus on people using a 10 kg vehicle, who I think could be pushing 20, that’s the more pressing issue here’

To be fair Lime bikes weight 35kg and many cargo bikes are pushing 65kgs. 

[malumbu]

Our side of the fence?  You seem to be supporting the manufactured culture wars.  This thread is getting dreadfully near an anti bike one.  There is lots of talk of using technology to track bikes.  So why are you not proposing that similar is done for cars.  The modern vehicle is fitted with data capturing equipment.  And then we could have no drivers misbehaving themselves.

And I will repeat my request to your 'side of the fence' - your experience of dangerous driving.

Me?  Well it would be a huge number of close passes - drivers who do not give enough space when passing cyclists.  Bur notable occurrences - road rage (being threatened and in one case driven at) - five or so

Hit and run - once - left for dead after being knocked into a parked car by a speeding car

Knocked off by a hire box van who didn't see me.

knocked off by a car on Underhill pulling out without looking

Car that did a u turn almost colliding with me - shouting fortunately got them to look

Very close bus pass off the OKR and bus cuts left in front of me Peckaham

And personal stats on collisions with pedestrians - a big round zero.  Near misses from pedestrians stepping out without looking - dozens

Near misses with delivery riders - too many, usually overtaking me at speed on the inside

 

[first mate]

7 minutes ago, malumbu said:

There is lots of talk of using technology to track bikes.  So why are you not proposing that similar is done for cars.

Clearly you do not or choose not to read what others post, so you can deflect and perpetuate your accusation of manufactured culture wars.

I said I would not have an issue with cars being fitted with speed limiters. I am sure you have done your homework, so please tell us how this would work in practice? What legislation, if any, would be required? Would cars have to be retrofitted with tech, how would this be done? What sort of timeframe and what costs? How might he geofencing aspect work?

So, what else do you want? Come Malumbu, here is your chance to give us your vision.

Of course, I assume you will no longer ever use a car? After all, from what some of you say we can and should all do without cars and simply rely on a combination of bicycle and public transport to get us anywhere, whether that be to see a relative, to visit a second home in France, or to go to hospital. 

[Earl Aelfheah]

3 hours ago, first mate said:

So really you want to squeeze and fine all but a few car owners and force them to use bicycles of some description.

Nope. I want speed limits to be enforced to the point where 85% of people in high powered vehicles aren’t ignoring them. Amazing that you (appear) to think this unreasonable in relation to cars, but are desperate to tackle it in relation to bicycles. There are far fewer people who cycle, it’s a tiny proportion of them who can maintain more than 20 for any distance, and the average bicycle weighs about 10kg, not 2 tons. So it’s a really weird way to rank your priorities.

3 hours ago, first mate said:

In terms of weight classes do all your preferred stipulations also apply to electric cars?

Yup. Although it’s not really just weight, it’s also bonnet height (almost more important), and power. 

3 hours ago, first mate said:

On the basis that your main objection seems to be about car speed and potential for damage, given size/weight, if all/majority of cars could be speed limited in town to keep them within designated limits, is there a need for the other stipulations?

No. I don’t see the need for ever bigger, heavier, and higher fronted vehicles in town. The car bloat should be discouraged imo for numerous reasons, just one of which is safety (an important one).

3 hours ago, first mate said:

Do you use cars...ever?

Yes. 

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

To be fair Lime bikes weight 35kg and many cargo bikes are pushing 65kgs. 

And the point stands. I mean E-bikes (which includes most cargo bikes), are clearly different to a standard bicycle. But even at 35 or even 65 kg, it’s quite different to over 2,000kg. So again, to constantly spotlight the former, whilst deflecting from the latter feels at best ‘misguided’.

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

Has anyone said they're not enraged by that? Most on here from our side of the fence are able to acknowledge the problems cars and other vehicles pose.

Yet we now have three threads focussed on speed limits for bicycles, including this one, that was meant to be about motor vehicles, but has also been redirected. Again, it’s a quick, whispered acknowledgement there are other (much bigger) issues, followed by more weapons grade deflection.

And the ‘our side of the fence’ comment is so, so revealing. 

Edited January 25 by Earl Aelfheah

[first mate]

24 minutes ago, Earl Aelfheah said:

Nope. I want speed limits to be enforced to the point where 85% of people in high powered vehicles aren’t ignoring them. Amazing that you (appear) to think this unreasonable in relation to cars, but are desperate to tackle it in relation to bicycles. There are far fewer people who cycle, it’s a tiny proportion of them who can maintain more than 20 for any distance, and the average bicycle weighs about 10kg, not 2 tons. So it’s a really weird way to rank your priorities.

Okay, so speed, weight and size of cars is the main issue? I did not say it was unreasonable to want cars to adhere to 20mph at all; I would be very happy for that to happen, so that is a shared aim, only I want all road users included, not just some.

As to weight and size, I also agree, I do not see the need for enormous vehicles in town, but if made to adhere to 20mph by speed limiters and seriously penalised for any breaches, I guess I could live with larger cars, given speed as a major driver re safety, has been addressed. 

Where we differ is the whole widening paths, greening streets approach, if 20 mph is adhered to, penalties are increased for breaches surely that is the main thing? 

I also think that if you are going to push for rafts of measures to make life as difficult for car drivers, should you be leading by example and sacrificing your own car use, however occasional?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25 by first mate

[malumbu]

1 hour ago, first mate said:

Clearly you do not or choose not to read what others post, so you can deflect and perpetuate your accusation of manufactured culture wars.

I said I would not have an issue with cars being fitted with speed limiters. I am sure you have done your homework, so please tell us how this would work in practice? What legislation, if any, would be required? Would cars have to be retrofitted with tech, how would this be done? What sort of timeframe and what costs? How might he geofencing aspect work?

So, what else do you want? Come Malumbu, here is your chance to give us your vision.

Of course, I assume you will no longer ever use a car? After all, from what some of you say we can and should all do without cars and simply rely on a combination of bicycle and public transport to get us anywhere, whether that be to see a relative, to visit a second home in France, or to go to hospital. 

That was rather an unfriendly post. And an unnecessary personal comment.  I have as much interest in tracking cars as tracking cyclists.  I can't see either of the two major parties doing this, and even for Reform it would be a step too far, and alienate many of their core vote.  The only tracking devices I want are to discourage theft and hopefully return stolen goods.  I have never said we should not drive, rather less, smarter, safer and more environmentally responsible driving.  Surely we cannot disagree on this.  And I am waiting to here the other side of the fence's experience of dangerous drivers.  To point out I neither use this term, or 'cycle lobby', these are divisive terms that only polarise discussion and at time lead to some toxic/personal comments.

As you asked today's experience was mainly speeding drivers - side roads in Beckenham and Cator Road in Beckenham.  Some exceeding 50mph - Cator Road is wide and a race track.  Now if they backed off the accelerator when passing me I wouldn't mind so much, but statistically you are far more likely to have a collision with another road user, including pedestrians, driving like that.

 

 

[first mate]

 I cannot stand speeding drivers and I am pleased to say I have a clean record on that score. I am diligent about observing 20mph and not only in town. I would not dream of jumping a red light, whether in a car or on a bicycle. 

I don't know if I have just been unusually lucky or perhaps it is because I have never been a speed freak, but I have had near misses both with other motorists and with other cyclists, the latter outweighing the former by some margin- which is surprising I know,  but that is my experience. I have had no issues with pedestrians and no near misses with pedestrians when cycling, but there again, I do not cycle fast.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, are you Frank Spencer...you seem to be the most accident prone person on the planet!? I have cycled and driven huge amounts yet have nothing like your rap sheet....a few near passes when on my bike, one very close one on Battersea roundabout where a driver drove across me when they were turning left and once fell off my friends bike at uni because I had no idea how cycle clips worked, stopped at a set of red lights and did a slow mo, comedy fall onto the grass verge...much to both my and the drivers amusement!

Edited January 26 by Rockets

[malumbu]

Please don't make light of dangerous drivers knocking me off my bike, one leaving me for dead.  You have had good fortune, sadly there are tens of cyclists who aren't so lucky each year.

I could start a whole thread with self inflicted accidents.  I wont. 

 

[Rockets]

On 26/01/2025 at 14:54, malumbu said:

I could start a whole thread with self inflicted accidents.  I wont. 

 

There's more....good grief....;-)

Seriously though, is this just bad luck?

On 25/01/2025 at 16:39, Earl Aelfheah said:

I mean E-bikes (which includes most cargo bikes), are clearly different to a standard bicycle. But even at 35 or even 65 kg, it’s quite different to over 2,000kg.

But still bikes right? I mean the "growth" in cycling is being propped up by Lime bikes so you can't exclude them from being categorised as cyclists can you? A bike between 35kg and 65kg powered by an electric motor to 15.5mph carries a lot more mass than a standard pushbike and therefore can do a lot more damage. Can it not? Clearly not the same as a car but still a potential risk.

Edited Monday at 20:43 by Rockets

[march46]

More driver damage on East Dulwich Grove, especially worrying how it’s on the pavement but even more so next to the pedestrian crossing outside Charter East School.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm confused, are Dulwich roads implying that the cyclist in the picture was moving at over 20mph and damaged the concrete block ? 

Oh my !

[Earl Aelfheah]

6 hours ago, march46 said:

More driver damage on East Dulwich Grove, especially worrying how it’s on the pavement but even more so next to the pedestrian crossing outside Charter East School.

 

People often speed on this road and often fail to stop at the zebra crossing. Better enforcement needed

[first mate]

 My view is try to get police to do some sessions at known hotspots but include cyclists, who often do not stop at the zebra either. More enforcement for careless and reckless road use needed all round.

[CPR Dave]

In my opinion the illiteracy of the person who tweeted that reveals the intelligence of their whole campaign.

[Sue]

11 minutes ago, CPR Dave said:

In my opinion the illiteracy of the person who tweeted that reveals the intelligence of their whole campaign.

Do you mean one spelling error?

[Rockets]

As usual, there is a lot to unpack from a Dulwich Roads post!  Do they know it was a tank-like vehicle that did the damage? Was the vehicle that caused the damage being driven dangerously or being driven above 20mph....

It seems that a lot of ideological guesswork gets applied to their posts - they are clearly not in accident investigation - thankfully!! 😉

[Penguin68]

I think it may also be relevant to ask what time the incident took place, and whether there is any suggestion the vehicle was stolen. Dangerous driving is of course always dangerous driving, but where it happens in the small hours, and if the driver is also a car thief (and possibly a joy rider) may also be relevant, as appears to be the case in some incidents. The proximity to a school, for instance, is less of an issue if the event was after midnight than if it had been during school hours (and particularly school at start or end time of the school day).

There is a tendency to assume all incidents are just caused by ordinary joes like the readership here - and that all drivers are the same under the skin. And that all incidents are as dangerous as each other, whenever they occur.