Petition in support of CPZ

[megalaki84]

Hi all,

If you go by this forum alone, you'd think that there is no support for the CPZ. I wanted to provide a way for people to express their endorsement of this policy to provide a more complete picture.

A minority of people in Southwark own a car but those that do have a greatly outsized impact on pollution, road accidents and climate change in one of the best connected cities in the world. It is only fair that those that cause a greater role in those issues should bear a greater cost. 

If you feel that the CPZ is a positive move by the council to improve our lives, here is one avenue to express that:

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=50000040&RPID=9100964&HPID=9100964&$LO$=1

 

 

 

 

[Rockets]

• According to the Southwark Dulwich Area Transport 2018 report over 60% of people in Dulwich own a car against a borough-wide figure of 42% owning a car
• According to the same report: The Dulwich area has a low level of public transport accessibility. Areas around the main stations only reach a PTAL 3 and The Village a PTAL 2 whilst the main commercial area around East Dulwich has a PTAL 3. Other parts of Dulwich, particularly those where schools are located have a level 2 of accessibility translating into a higher use of car and coach for pupils outside of Dulwich.
• And again in the same report: Walking is the mode of choice (65%) for most trips inside Dulwich and as the first leg of longer journeys (access to station)
• There is little evidence CPZs do anything to reduce the number of cars on the road
• During the last democratic consultation on CPZs 68% of East Dulwich respondents  said they opposed the CPZ plans. The facility to object to the CPZ has subsequently been removed from the latest consultation 

It's all in here if you are interested.....https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/6887/Dulwich-TMS-SDG-Full-Report-Final-April-2018-.pdf

 

There rests the case for the defence m'lud.......

Edited July 19, 2023 by Rockets

[JMK]

 

Quote

I wanted to provide a way for people to express their endorsement of this policy to provide a more complete picture.

perhaps...but the democratic way to introduce a policy is to hold a consultation which provides residents with the option to object to the introduction of a CPZ

The unilateral imposition of a CPZ in the manner proposed by Southwark Council is neither democratic nor fair

It is however underhand, duplicitous and lacking in any integrity.

I wonder and have posted elsewhere as to whether or not it is legally valid - it may or may not be but there appears to be at least 5 pieces of legislation that apply to this area of law and requires a competent lawyer to opine.

The proponents of this policy are also those that argue for a "Just transition" - yet they also support the most egregious and regressive of taxes for such a transition which are the subsidies levied on all (primarily) electricity and gas bills to pay for renewable energy such that the least well off in society pay for it.

In simple terms, this is because the renewable subsidies apply equally to each unit of electricity or gas consumed by everyone.

They are neither means tested nor proportional and so the least well off pay significantly more than the better off.

That is not to say that renewable subsidies are illegal, bad or not required - but the fact is that are highly regressive and also deliberately hidden so that people don't understand who is paying them, how and importantly, who's disadavantaged.  Don't expect any of Labour, Lib Dems, SNP or the Tories to put that in the campaign leaflets or ever to explain it to the public.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by JMK

[CPR Dave]

I've shared this with everyone I know in the CPZ area who self-identifies as an inhabitant.

 

[Boscombe]

2 hours ago, megalaki84 said:

It is only fair that those that cause a greater role in those issues should bear a greater cost. 

You do realise that if a CPZ is imposed borough wide, it also has cost implications for you, car owner or not? Every time someone comes to visit you - a friend/relative, workman, health visitor, anyone - you are going to have to pay for an hourly/few hours/one day visitor's permit for them to park outside your house?

[megalaki84]

1 minute ago, Boscombe said:

You do realise that if a CPZ is imposed borough wide, it also has cost implications for you, car owner or not? Every time someone comes to visit you - a friend/relative, workman, health visitor, anyone - you are going to have to pay for an hourly/few hours/one day visitor's permit for them to park outside your house?

Absolutely, I do. And any cost is 100% worth it because some things are more important than a few extra quid in your wallet. 

[Rockets]

Remind me, what positive impact of CPZs that are "100% worth it" are you referring to? If you have drunk from the council kool-aid hose and believe this is about impacting climate change then, I fear, you are gravely mistaken and being taken for a ride by the council.

[Chick]

 

Megalaki84,

Do you live in a house with electricity, gas central heating.

If yes then you are a hypocrite.

"If you feel that the CPZ is a positive move by the council to improve our lives"

It isn't, it's about raising revenue for the council.

If you want to be morally pure on climate change and pollution you have to go live in a cave and eat berries. 

[malumbu]

Wow, as if there aren't any other threads where you can vent your anger at Southwark/TfL/Labour travel policies and interventions.  Most of inner London has CPZs.  The sun still rises in the morning and sets in the evening.  I'll not be objecting and hope some in this forum will be looking at both arguments.

[AllisonAdler]

14 hours ago, megalaki84 said:

Absolutely, I do. And any cost is 100% worth it because some things are more important than a few extra quid in your wallet. 

Wow, that's possibly a bit of a harsh attitude for those whose children either do or don't eat depending on whether or not they have 'a few extra quid' in their pockets. This is the biggest problem with areas of privilege like Dulwich--affluent inhabitants vote for councillors who share their 'progressive' views, and then said councillors feel entitled to impose all kinds of legislation on their constituencies without any real thought for those who are less well off, less prone to feelings of entitlement, and who are generally disregarded by ruling élites. I speak as someone who is indeed incredibly fortunate, a lifelong progressive, and a passionate advocate of caring for our environment, but I am massively dismayed by the blithe authoritarianism of those who purport to share my values.

[Jacqui5254]

15 hours ago, Boscombe said:

You do realise that if a CPZ is imposed borough wide, it also has cost implications for you, car owner or not? Every time someone comes to visit you - a friend/relative, workman, health visitor, anyone - you are going to have to pay for an hourly/few hours/one day visitor's permit for them to park outside your house?

 

 ...and a £65 fine each and every time your cleaning lady, friend, relative, child, pops by and forgets their 1-hour permit has run out 10 minutes ago.  "I thought I'd only be here an hour", "I didn't realise the time", or "I didn't ask you for a permit for my car as I was only dropping off your child and then we got chatting on the doorstep..."  "I didn't even notice the warden on the moped..."

 

Things to consider...

 

The person visiting you stays 10 mins longer than intended.  Returning to their car that has a 2hr parking voucher, their 'extra 10 mins results in a £65 fine.

Your cleaning lady decides to stay a bit longer to finish off a job and when you get home from work she left you a note saying "I got a ticket, I didn't realise"...results in a £65 fine.

Your guests stay overnight. Next morning, too late, you realise they should have had a parking voucher from 8am...run out to the car, £65 fine. 

Car goes into the garage and you have a loan car for the day...completely overlooking the fact that not only is your permit in your car in the garage but such permit is useless as it is for that car only, and you should have made arrangements with the council for a temporary permit.  £65 fine. 

Your visitor puts a voucher on the dashboard and it blows over or to the floor as the door closes.  You then show the voucher to the warden when challenging the ticket but are told "you could have written it after the fine"...£65. 

 

Permits will preoccupy you day in day out. I have lived where a vigorously managed CPZ had parking wardens waiting on the corners of the street at 7.59 am each day, ready to pounce. The most diligent of neighbours still paying fines [because they are human and they, or their visitors, occasionally forget].  The annoyance that you have paid £250 so you expect to be able to park. 

You will need to pay to park on most other roads [by getting hold of permits for that road], making sure you cover yourself for the remaining enforced time left and, if necessary, another permit for the following morning if you arrive home after work.

 

You will have to get used to clock-watching, being constantly aware of the need to remember the permit times of visitors, to mark time, to note time, to use visitor permits, deciding whether or not to give a visitor a permit if they only drop by for a few minutes ...if so, you stand guard at the window the whole time, looking for wardens. That is, if you can see the car...

 

You will have to get used to the regular sight of wardens, who often don't bring a sense of joy and optimism, as you now live in a lucrative, money-making CPZ.   

 

All these things and more happened to me and my neighbours when we lived in an unwanted, unrequested [by us], CPZ.

 

Oh yes, and we unanimously requested 12-2pm and got 8am-8.30pm, Mon to Sat inclusive. Once in place, and despite many protestations, it never changed.

 

It's not just the £250+ cost of the permit....

 

[Pugwash]

When I worked for Lambeth, some 20 years ago or so, most of the borough was in a CPZ with each street (or in some cases in very long streets), having a different zone area. This meant if you lived in zone A and there were no spaces, you could not park further down the road or in next road as it was zone B. We were refused Essential Workers Permits and informed we had to use public transport. So a visit to an elderly person living alone and with medical needs could take up to 2 hours depending on which part of the borough from our base, but had we EWP - likely half of that time.

I moved to Southwark where was given EWP for whole borough, which resulted in being able to reach a vulnerable person quickly. Carers employed via agencies are not issued with permits and this in turn reduces the number of carers available to provide care packages which in turn leads in many cases of delayed hospital discharges. Medical staff especially nurses, have to apply for a 'medical permit' in order to carry out their duties in the community - another time consuming exercise.

I agree pollution needs to be cut - buses, lorries, coaches, diesel fuelled vehicles etc. If my children want to visit me they have public transport journeys ranging  from  3 - 5 hours door to door, which is not easy when you have primary aged children -including an autistic child. I use my car on average twice a week to carry passengers or heavy shopping, other than that it is visiting the family in Kent and West Sussex. We do need to be more careful as to how we use or vehicles - the parents who park outside my house with engines running whilst they collect kids from St. Anthony's School add to the pollution. CPZs are needed in highly dense areas i.e West End, Croydon Town Centre, some areas around Westminster etc. but are not necessary the answer to the whole on ED/Dulwich/

[malumbu]

Sounds like you would be better off using a car club such as Zipcar and occasionally hiring.  Probably makes economic sense.  When the CPZ arrives I expect a sizeable number will do this freeing up space on our roads.

I've done some work with Lambeth and I believe they have pool bikes for staff who need to travel for their work, maybe even electrically assisted ones 

[malumbu]

Just adding and a separate subject, leaving your car idling when stationary for over a minute us about as sensible as selling and eating popcorn at the cinema.  Silly but so many people do it with no respect for others.  This has been discussed numerous times on the forum and not suggesting a petition 

[Jacqui5254]

13 hours ago, malumbu said:

Sounds like you would be better off using a car club such as Zipcar and occasionally hiring.  Probably makes economic sense.  When the CPZ arrives I expect a sizeable number will do this freeing up space on our roads.

I've done some work with Lambeth and I believe they have pool bikes for staff who need to travel for their work, maybe even electrically assisted ones 

 

I did look at Zipcar as an alternative for my occasional use needs in ED and a few trips to the Yorkshire Dales to see close family.

Unfortunately, the most basic Zipcar for a 5 day trip, with no certainty that you can stay on an extra night which I often do [an extra £85], the price comes in at £483.  Completely prohibitive for me.

[snowy]

Isn't zip intended for shorter local/regional use? 
 

You would obviously get a cheaper holiday term hire price from enterprise or hertz (other hire companies are available).

[Boscombe]

As someone who opposes the CPZ, I was genuinely interested to see how popular this petition was. Not that popular, as it turns out - only two people have signed it (and I guess you're one of those, megalaki?). I hope this gives all those who want us saddled with this highly questionable proposal some pause for thought. 

[megalaki84]

No but, on reflection what's the point? It's happening anyway. As an afront to right wing, car loving, climate deniers however it's wonderful

Edited August 24, 2023 by megalaki84

[Boscombe]

Happening without a democratic mandate. And your characterisation of anyone who opposes the CPZ as 'right wing, car loving, climate deniers' does your argument no credit. But I guess, given that you clearly don't give a monkey's what the majority think, why not employ a sweeping generalisation? 

[Rockets]

We did warn Megalaki that setting up a petition in support of the CPZs might backfire somewhat....

[malumbu]

So correct me if I am wrong Rocks, you are very interested in this thread.  Can I assume that you and many others signed?  Good stuff.

[Rockets]

Malumbu, only two people signed it and one of them wasn't me!

[MrsR]

Please contribute if you can….
 

https://opposethecpz.org/2023/08/28/funding-for-legal-advice/

[Dulwitch]

A few extra quid in your pocket is a thoroughly unintelligent, vacuous statement and a serious insult to many longstanding and older residents of this area. I have lived here over 30 years, am 67 and have mobility problems. As a result of nursing my terminally ill partner over a long period and using all our savings, my income is solely State pension and Pension Credit. I live in Therapia Road and there is no bus service to get me to Lordship lane, an accessible station, Kings College Hospital or other necessities. I  can't cycle at all and can't walk long distances. Without a car, I can't access food, medical care, buy and post a birthday card or even get a haircut. 

So whilst a 'few extra quid in YOUR pocket' might not matter, perhaps in future you might care to engage your brain before you trot out such trite drivel and take a look around you at other people's lives and challenges. If you fancy trying to live on less than a Southwark Councillor gets for their annual allowance each year, walk a mile in my shoes and see if you still think this is such a marvellous proposal. You never know what life will throw at you, but don't assume that your privileged position will last as long as you do.

 

 

[Chick]

Very well put!

 

On 24/08/2023 at 20:33, megalaki84 said:

No but, on reflection what's the point? It's happening anyway. As an afront to right wing, car loving, climate deniers however it's wonderful

Are you still reading The Mail?