Cyclists taking over paths!!

[Hen123]

15 hours ago, Spartacus said:

Hen123, despite the stats, it still doesn't mean cyclists are safe to ignore the rules. 

There's an old joke when a 95 year old granny with poor eyesight was asked if she had been involved in any accidents during her driving career, and she replies none but I've seen plenty in my rear view mirror 

I have seen so many near misses (both as a bus user, driver and pedestrian) where a cyclist has done something unexpected or illegal and fear the day that its not a near miss.

Well you are complaining about road users who cause 0% of deaths and 2% of injuries on London roads. If you were genuinely worried about road safety you would post more consistently with the relative risk. Do you post 50 posts about car drivers breaking the rules, jumping red lights, driving on pavements, not stopping for pedestrians at junctions- for every one you whine about cyclists? If so you have my respect. 

8 hours ago, Nigello said:

Posh mummies and daddies with all the gear (gold helmets, trendy jackets, paniers fore and aft) love to brandish the kiddywinks they carry as a kind of carte blanche to cycle on footpaths, even when they’re right next to a cycle lane and/or a LTN. Resist! (Lycra-clad “professionals”, though, are often courteous and law-abiding, stopping at zebras and knowing their place is on the road and not the pavement.)  

 

6 hours ago, snowy said:

Louisa did this so much better.

Didn’t she move to Essex so she could run down children cycling to school without the middle class “man” getting on her back? 

[Spartacus]

9 hours ago, Hen123 said:

Well you are complaining about road users who cause 0% of deaths and 2% of injuries on London roads. If you were genuinely worried about road safety you would post more consistently with the relative risk. Do you post 50 posts about car drivers breaking the rules, jumping red lights, driving on pavements, not stopping for pedestrians at junctions- for every one you whine about cyclists? If so you have my respect.

The honest truth is for every one car I see do any of those, I see 50 cyclists jumping lights, using the pavement or failing to stop for pedestrians. 

Yes it happens but proportionally cyclists seem to flout the law more than cars drivers. 

As I said it's perception. 

[RegularDan]

The honest truth is a perception?

[first mate]

3 hours ago, Spartacus said:

The honest truth is for every one car I see do any of those, I see 50 cyclists jumping lights, using the pavement or failing to stop for pedestrians. 

Yes it happens but proportionally cyclists seem to flout the law more than cars drivers. 

As I said it's perception. 

I think there is some truth in this, and with little in the way of penalties perhaps no surprise.

Just yesterday, I saw a child nearly taken out by someone riding a Lime bike, who went through a red light at speed. I have not seen a car run a red light for a very long time, but see many cyclists do it, whether in my car or on my bike.

[Hen123]

11 hours ago, Spartacus said:

The honest truth is for every one car I see do any of those, I see 50 cyclists jumping lights, using the pavement or failing to stop for pedestrians. 

Yes it happens but proportionally cyclists seem to flout the law more than cars drivers. 

As I said it's perception. 

I saw 5 cars jumpings red lights today and about 30 speeding. One idiot in a white BMW weaving in and out of traffic nearly knocking down a mother pushing pram trying to cross the road. He didn’t even slow down for the ambulance coming the other way. The police do nothing of course. 

[first mate]

Car or bike, all are dangerous and all should be addressed.

I am amazed you saw 5 cars jump red lights in one day, where was this? Perhaps I am being naïve but so many lights are rigged with cameras, wouldn't that mean instant points on the licence?

I do think the same type of entitled attitude drives the behaviour, whether on two wheels or four. I especially hate those car drivers that intimidate and tailgate when you have the temerity to stick to a 20mph speed limit.

[Penguin68]

8 hours ago, first mate said:

I am amazed you saw 5 cars jump red lights in one day, where was this?

The only time I have seen this happen (multiple red light drive through) is when the light sequencing has failed when drivers treat the road as they would an uncontrolled cross roads. In order to be able to proceed at all. I would have no problems in these circumstances with cyclists acting similarly. 

[malumbu]

Go to a busy junction which doesn't have cameras and you will see one, two or three cars running the light after it has changed.  The one by the Rye is a typical one, frustrating for those that don't have a right filter so limited chance to manoeuvre before traffic comes from the other road. I sense that some are so concerned about bikes that they have a distorted view.  Has anyone looked at government policy on poor cycling standards?  Information campaigns?  Training? Enforcement?  I have other priorities although big issues with illegal e bikes, lack of training for Uber riders etc and the need to get them properly employed with fair terms and conditions.  As they can sell on their jobs, and Uber etc have no responsibility for those that take over, we will get a serious injury between a food delivery rider on an illegal e bike sooner or later where there is no responsibility beyond the rider with limited finances.

Edited April 22 by malumbu

[Hen123]

1 hour ago, Penguin68 said:

The only time I have seen this happen (multiple red light drive through) is when the light sequencing has failed when drivers treat the road as they would an uncontrolled cross roads. In order to be able to proceed at all. I would have no problems in these circumstances with cyclists acting similarly. 

So you have no problem with road users ignoring the rules when they deem them unnecessary and it is safe to do so. Got it. 

[malumbu]

I had a look on Google for commitments by the major parties to address 'antisocial cycling' but couldn't find anything.  I expect we will hear more in coming months, judging by the anti cycling sentiment of the Tories, Reform and the 'odd' independent running for London Mayor.  Sunak has already made it clear that he is anti public transport, anti environment and pro driving.

To remind you of the current manifesto: We will support commuter cycling routes, so that more people can cycle safely to work and more families can go out together. We will create a new £350 million Cycling Infrastructure Fund with mandatory design standards for new routes. We will extend Bikeability – cycling proficiency training – to every child. And we will work with the NHS to promote cycling for healthier living.

They will fail on the latter but I hope that most of you agree that getting kids to do it right will reduce some of the issues people are articulating here. Funny how you look back with some nostalgia  to Johnson and Gilligan.  Well on cycling, and the environment, in any case.  And some pretty revolutionary stuff on social prescribing - encouraging and supporting active travel rather than tranqulisers:

"more personalised care – linking GPs with wider forms of community support, such as social prescribing, could allow care to be more personalised which would help reduce the need for people to have more expensive, invasive medical treatment" https://www.gov.uk/government/news/patients-to-receive-better-care-as-nhs-and-social-care-systems-link-up

 

[first mate]

5 hours ago, Hen123 said:

So you have no problem with road users ignoring the rules when they deem them unnecessary and it is safe to do so. Got it. 

I don't think that was what Penguin was saying at all. If light sequencing fails how should road users proceed? 
 

Given the quite serious penalties for car users running red lights I am still surprised it happens as often as some on here have stated. Now speeding, that is different.

Edited April 22 by first mate

[malumbu]

In the great scheme of things running a red light is less serious than hand held mobile device or excessive speeding ie beyond that where a speed awareness course is usually the penalty.  Many drivers run red lights, many traffic lights do not have cameras.  It feels like many are either pretending that motorists do not regularly break the law or that it is trivial.

[first mate]

Do you think cyclists running red lights or cycling on pavements is just fine then?
A red light is the occasion when a pedestrian may be more likely to cross a busy road. Because there are significant penalties for car drivers, the vast majority of drivers do stop at a red light; I rarely see cyclists stop.
As I said before, the other day a I witnessed a Lime bike shoot through a red light at speed and nearly take out a child. Had the bike connected, that would have been a nasty injury. 
As Rockets has pointed out, there clearly is an issue with this as City of London Police are cracking down on cyclists.

[LordshipPain]

Stepped out of my garden on Underhill Road (neighbours have overgrown bushes so visibility is very poor) just as a cyclist on an electric bike - not a Lime bike but clearly his own bike - whizzed past on the pavement shouting expletives at a car that was not going fast enough over the speed bumps for the cyclist's liking. If I had been half a second earlier, with my dog, I or the dog would have been seriously injured as he was going full pelt. He had on the lycra and a helmet. No apology or even acknowledgment.

[Penguin68]

17 hours ago, first mate said:

I don't think that was what Penguin was saying at all. If light sequencing fails how should road users proceed? 
 

It wasn't.

[malumbu]

16 hours ago, first mate said:

Do you think cyclists running red lights or cycling on pavements is just fine then?
A red light is the occasion when a pedestrian may be more likely to cross a busy road. Because there are significant penalties for car drivers, the vast majority of drivers do stop at a red light; I rarely see cyclists stop.
As I said before, the other day a I witnessed a Lime bike shoot through a red light at speed and nearly take out a child. Had the bike connected, that would have been a nasty injury. 
As Rockets has pointed out, there clearly is an issue with this as City of London Police are cracking down on cyclists.

Did I say that?  I'm not sure why adults cycle on the pavement beyond the odd short cut, for a few metres, and even then walk the bike if there are people on it.  I don't condone unsafe riding.  I don't feel the need to go on about it, feel it gets disproportionate coverage when there are other issues, and that there is a sense that from some "oh the poor motorist"  and "its all those cyclists fault" that the "poor motorist is being victimised".

I could post dozens of stories of dangerous driving that have affected me, I see it every day, but don't feel the need, and would of course have to balance this with the fact that most road users happily share space.

I've asked some good questions about how you address 'antisocial cycling" but nobody has offered any answers - as this is a forum I'd be keen to understand.

The Old Street enforcement is pretty rare and I doubt whether this will make much of a difference unless the police role this out wider.  They wont.  There is no political will.  I've been stopped by the police cycling maybe three times in twenty years, twice to invite me into the cab of a HGV as part of a safer cycling campaign, and once as they were doing security marking.  I've seen plenty of dangerous driving in plain view of police officers, more often than not illegal ebikes and food delivery riders. 

Interesting reading a MPS FOI on cycling enforcement, 52 FPN in 5 years for cycling on pavements, therefore either it hardly happens or it is a low priority

https://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/d/september-2022/fixed-penalty-notices-issued-cycling-offences-london-january2017-august2022/

	Row Labels 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 Grand Total   Cycling on footway 358 258 297 460 552 174 2099   Pedal cycle - contrave traffic sign   4 74 246 158 66 548   Pedal cycle - contravening automatic traffic signals 2445           2445   Pedal cycle - contravening constable on traffic duty   3   1     4   PEDAL CYCLE - CONTRAVENING DIRECTION GIVEN BY POLICE CONSTABLE / TRAFFIC SURVEY   3 1 1     5   Pedal cycle - contravening traffic signs 72           72   Pedal cycle - contravening warden on traffic duty   1     2   3   Pedal cycle - failing to stop for a police constable 17 11 16 18 24 10 96   Pedal cycle - lights not conforming or lit during hours of darkness 65 80 93 122 90 31 481   Pedal cycle - riding where prohibited 4 12 1       17   Pedal cycle - unauthorised passenger 1 2 6 6 3 2 20   Pedal cycle - without lights being fitted 8 6 2 9 13 4 42   Ride a pedal cycle on a footpath / causeway by the side of a road made / set apart for the use of foot passengers     9 16 14 13 52   Ride a pedal cycle on a road and fail to comply with the indication given by a traffic sign/light   3548 5893 4490 4751 2324 21006   Grand Total 2970 3928 6392 5369 5607 2624 26890
	Just noted an error in my assessment of the data, will anyone notice it?  Doubt it!

 

 

Edited April 23 by malumbu
Error that was noted but not corrected

[Hen123]

2 hours ago, Penguin68 said:

It wasn't.

Yeah it was. 

[first mate]

Malumbu said:

"I've asked some good questions about how you address 'antisocial cycling" but nobody has offered any answers - as this is a forum I'd be keen to understand."

Isn't this what City of London police are now doing, addressing 'antisocial cycling'?

[malumbu]

Nope that will not address antisocial cycling, it is a token effort, hardly going to change society is it? 

[Rockets]

Malumbu, by that measure are police efforts to cut down on anti-social driving by issuing tickets and fines a token effort as well? Surely punitive measures for cyclists breaking the rules will encourage them not to break the rules again? A bit like when you got stopped and taken into the cab of an HGV. The police are currently using that tactic to show those who break the rules cycling that it might lead them to being hit by a lorry due to the driver's having limited vision - the cycling equivalent of a speed awareness course for drivers. 

 

When they stopped you was it because you had broken a rule or was it just more of an education programme and they asked you to take a look and did it change your cycling behaviour in any way? As I said previously there are those who break the rules on cycling out of ignorance (and those out of arrogance) and I am sure they are using HGVs to educate those in the ignorance category and then hitting those in the arrogance category with the PCNs.

 

 

[malumbu]

Enforcement for both drivers and cyclists low priority for the police and our local politicians. Not my decision.  I'd happily make those that don't know or bother with mirror signal manoeuvre, or cut corners, resit their test, but that would be 90 percent of drivers so would overwhelmed the system and lead to civil unrest.  A more straightforward response would be to put the car in a crusher but that would be even less popular.  I'll consult the old testament to see what else could be done 

Edited April 24 by malumbu

[Spartacus]

34 minutes ago, malumbu said:

Enforcement for both drivers and cyclists low priority for the police and our local politicians. Not my decision.  I'd happily make those that don't know or bother with mirror signal manoeuvre, or cut corners, resit their test, but that would be 90 percent of drivers so would overwhelmed the system and lead to civil unrest.  A more straightforward response would be to put the car in a crusher but that would be even less popular.  I'll consult the old testament to see what else could be done 

And what would you suggest for cyclists that also flout the rules? 

Crush their bikes at the same facility that crushes errant drivers cars ? 

Same rules and punishment must  apply to all road users (except runaway horses of course) 

[malumbu]

What would I do about cyclists?  The failed Tory manfesto commitment to train all kids was an excellent proposal.  Public information campaigns aimed at all road users, rather than singling some out, to more considerately share the road, as TfL have done, is welcome too.

As for crunching vehicles.  I'd extend this to illegal ebikes, illegal e-scoooters (I think some local authorities have done this with the latter) but before that I would

(a) legislate that the delivery companies move away from zero hours contracts to permanent employees and take responsibility for their training, vehicles and behaviour on the road.   More expensive takeaways are a price worth paying for safer roads and proper terms and conditions

(b) legislate to register all illegal e-bikes and scooters so that when they are found on the road the retailer takes a hit, and clamp down on any grey markets.  If you buy an e scooter say from Halfords this comes with a disclaimer that it can only be used on private land with the owner's permission.

[first mate]

On 23/04/2024 at 22:42, malumbu said:

Nope that will not address antisocial cycling, it is a token effort, hardly going to change society is it? 

You could apply the same argument to any kind of penalty as an effective deterrent.  Better than doing nothing. 

[malumbu]

Ah the sending asylum seekers to Rwanda argument.  Well let's see how effective that is.

I've made suggestions of what to do.