Southwark-wide CPZ

[mr.chicken]

32 minutes ago, first mate said:

But, you keep generalising, truly I am only interested in the local picture.

ED has some very large hills. We are told well get an e-bike but then there is the problem of where to keep that, both when out and about (bike theft is on the rise and they are expensive) and in the house. Those things are heavy. Then it's well use a hire e-bike. They are also heavy and cumbersome. I understand for many they may work well but not for all.

You argue London is too big, I offer an example of a sprawlier more appears our town. You argue east dulwich specifically is too hilly, I give examples in Switzerland which makes dog kernel Hill look like a molehill.

How is that generalizing?

Honestly I'm actually happy to play whac-a-mole with concerns provided they are genuine concerns and moot concern trolling. It's not entirely obvious that cycling can be a major form of transport in apparently adverse conditions. I didn't realise for example it was practical in snow covered paths at 20 below, but turns out intuition is not perfect. The residents of Oulu have little problem with it.

The hire bikes are heavy, normal ebikes aren't nearly so heavy especially with the battery removed.

Cycle hangars are a quite reasonable option which the council is able to install and are relatively inexpensive.

And as for cost: compared to what? The alternative we're taking about is cars. The average annual ruining cost is £3500  per year, and that's not excluding purchase and depreciation.

You could get a lot of bike for only £1750 per year. Bikes, even expensive fancy cargo e bikes are vastly cheaper than cars.

@Spartacus eh? What are you taking about? You're being more incoherent than usual. I'm kind of impressed that's even possible 😉

[Spartacus]

Oh Mr Cockerell 

So amusing calling me names again, why I'm splitting my side with laughter.

[snowy]

1 hour ago, Rockets said:

Of course since the LTNs went in in London we are now the most/one of the most congested cities in the world. Co-incidence - you will no doubt say yes. Others are less likely to be so convinced.

And yet the INRIX research you are quoting also says that the busiest london roads causing the majority of the delays are nowhere near LTNs.
 

It says that that worst effect was on the Fulham Road as Hammersmith Bridge was closed by - guess what, too much vibration from vehicles.

[INRIX also doesn't include cities in China or India, so 'most congested in the world except for those other pesky bits of continents with cities in']

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by snowy

[Penguin68]

2 hours ago, snowy said:

Driving is a privilege not a right, recognised by the fact that a license is revocable and that compulsory insurance required to operate a vehicle on the road.

If it were a right, you could have your license revoked and still justify driving. Try that and see what happens.

 

2 hours ago, mr.chicken said:

It seems some people think the "right" to drive wherever you want. That's really really bizarre because it has never been true.

Just out of interest, and of course I don't expect you (either of you) to read what is written before you criticise it, but I very clearly caveated the 'right' to drive as the continuing right to drive, when licenced to do so, having passed tests and not having forfeited the right, and clearly, to any of all but the smallest brains, I would necessarily and obviously exclude the right to drive on roads other than those designated as public, and indeed when not otherwise specified - I have no right to drive the wrong way down one-way streets, or through barriers (unlike apparently cyclists - and yes some one-way streets for cars are 2 way for cyclists, but those are clearly signed) .

However I do have the right to drive (it is not a privilege) - that right cannot be taken from me save in specific instances covered by legislation. I (and I presume you) have the right to vote, again not a privilege, but only in circumstances proscribed by law, by virtue of my citizenship, my age and my having registered to vote. Voting, like driving, is a right under law, not a privilege. I have never suggested, by the way, that the right to drive equates to the right to drive anywhere and under any circumstances, so don't put words in my mouth. There are many other things that I haven't said which 'are really bizarre because they've never been true' - but insisting this doth win you no argument.

Oh, and snowy - its perhaps a shame that all road-vehicle users are not required to carry compulsory insurance to operate a road vehicle - but they have a right to do so without - or would you say that's a privilege?

[Rockets]

Snowy, Chelsea Bridge has signs on it saying troops need to break step when marching across it so vibrating bridges has been a thing for a long time!

 

Interesting though that London was the only UK city to register an increase (5%) in congestion since Covid and the next closest in the top ten UK cities saw a 9% decrease.....what caused that do you think?

[mr.chicken]

3 hours ago, Rockets said:

Snowy, Chelsea Bridge has signs on it saying troops need to break step when marching across it so vibrating bridges has been a thing for a long time!

Rockets, you're clearly not an engineer. I am. I would recommend not cosplaying one.

But since you're here, the difference is between vibration induced damage and resonance. Soldiers are told to break step in case they hit the resonant frequency of the bridge. That causes it to resonate like a plucked string which can cause rapid failure. This is what a resonating bridge looks like (in this case aerodynamic effects put in energy at the resonant frequency):

The failure is rapid. Vibration induced damage, the kind you get from for example having heavy vehicle traffic over a bridge which was not designed for it is a completely different mechanism.

As with all things where engineering goes bad there are multiple causes. A weird design. Heavy use of wrought iron and cast iron instead of steel. Poor maintenance caused by politics. Damage caused by the IRA and various spinoffs. Excessive pollution causing acid rain and the resulting corrosion over many years. Global warming. And of course much heavier traffic than it was designed for.

Fortunately inspections did not fail meaning it is a mere inconvenience rather than a deadly disaster.

It is likely that if some of those were missing, the bridge would be OK. But you can't absolve heavy traffic of the problem. Well, OK you can because you are clearly incredibly pro motor vehicles, but it's irrational and also incorrect to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rockets]

Mr Chicken, no I am not an engineer but thanks for clarifying my point that vibrating bridges have been a thing for a long time. Didn't the Millenium Bridge have the same issue? ;-) Its good to know that if anyone on the forum ever needs any engineering advice they can come to you - we can all sleep well at night now..;-)

Does your expertise stretch beyond engineering? If so, perhaps you can help Snowy and take a stab at,  keeping the thread on topic, answering my question about why you think  London congestion increased by 5% post Covid and yet the next placed city in the top 10 most congested UK cities decreased by 9% and Belfast managed to reduce it by 36% in the Inrix report?

 

P.S. I am not a cosplay fan but if you are its all good with me - each to their own and all that! ;-)

[mr.chicken]

16 minutes ago, Rockets said:

Mr Chicken, no I am not an engineer but thanks for clarifying my point that vibrating bridges have been a thing for a long time. Didn't the Millenium Bridge have the same issue? 😉 Its good to know that if anyone on the forum ever needs any engineering advice they can come to you - we can all sleep well at night now..;-)

I'm getting the impression with the surfeit of winkys that you believe you have scored a point or won some sort of argument. I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you have even scored a point on.

 

[Rockets]

No just emphasising the tongue-in-cheek nature of some of the content. Maybe if I had put one on the Chelsea Bridge comment you wouldn't have gone on your engineering lecture...;-)

[Spartacus]

1 hour ago, mr.chicken said:

I'm getting the impression with the surfeit of winkys that you believe you have scored a point or won some sort of argument. I'm at a complete loss as to what you think you have even scored a point on.

 

However you didn't answer Rock's question which is 

"Does your expertise stretch beyond engineering? If so, perhaps you can help Snowy and take a stab at,  keeping the thread on topic, answering my question about why you think  London congestion increased by 5% post Covid and yet the next placed city in the top 10 most congested UK cities decreased by 9% and Belfast managed to reduce it by 36% in the Inrix report?" 

As an observation, you seem to regularly attack the posters character / styke rather than answering a direct question!

 

[mr.chicken]

9 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

As an observation, you seem to regularly attack the posters character / styke rather than answering a direct question!

As someone who's wildly misrepresented me to the point of outright lying, that's a bit rich don't you think?

Edited August 8, 2023 by mr.chicken

[Rockets]

Attack but never answer....where have we seen this before, takes us back to the glory days of LTN Manatee.....? 😉

[Spartacus]

7 minutes ago, mr.chicken said:

As someone who's wildly misrepresented me to the point of outright lying, that's a bit rich don't you think?

Show me where I lied ?

But again you deflect and don't answer... you are starting to get form.

Now answer rocks questions (please) 

Just now, Rockets said:

Attack but never answer....where have we seen this before, takes us back to the glory days of LTN Manatee.....? 😉

That's who they remind me off 

[first mate]

Well Chicken, you did totally misquote Spartacus and I called you out on it.

You do seem to regularly accuse everyone else of lying but it is good you are over your more shouty in bold/caps phase. 

[mr.chicken]

@Rockets and @Spartacus seems that both of you have adopted the Conservative and American Republican strategy of pointing and shouting that your opponent is doing something in an attempt to make people not notice that you're doing it.

 

@Spartacus We've already been round this loop, but looks like you've conveniently forgotten so you can keep asking the same questions over and over again. You paraphrased me as saying the CPZ was a panacea, something which I have never said or said anything even remotely similar to.

 

9 minutes ago, Rockets said:

but never answer.

And lies from Rockets too. I've answered plenty of stuff. I simply didn't happen to answer this particular question of yours within an hour. Tell me what why don't you do the legwork and answer your own question? But before you do, a lack of knowledge doesn't mean "the LTN did it".

 

[first mate]

Poor show Chicken. Trying to frame those you don't agree with as adopting  tactics of the far right is a rather despicable smear and reflects badly on you. 

[Spartacus]

@mr.chicken ahhh, so using a phrase is paraphrasing you as saying it rather than an expression to show that something isn't the golden panacea (read carefully what I wrote and not once did I say you used the expression) 

But I still see no answers, just twisting and deflectong like a poor impression of Boris denying party gate or a Domanic saying he didn't go to a castle.

Are you going to answer Rock's questions or not ? 

 

 

[alice]

the chicken has been fried

[mr.chicken]

34 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

So mal the chicken, over to you, what would you do knowing a CPZ isn't going to be the golden panacea you try and claim it is.

Do you deny saying that? So tell me where have I ever tried to claim it's a golden panacea? I have not and you know it. So it is a lie that I've tried to claim that. Pants on 🔥

38 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

Are you going to answer Rock's questions or not ?

Which question? If it's the one about other cities, why should I? It has nothing to do with the CPZ, and even without that, I'm sure Rockets can answer his own question rather than outsource it to me. Or you could show a spark and answer it yourself, preferably on a relevant thread.

[Rockets]

Mr Chicken - have you ever been on this forum under another name? The way you argue, name call and try to negatively deposition anyone with a view opposite of yours yet never actually answer questions is very, very reminiscent of some of the multiple account posters of the past....

 

I don't know about anyone else but I am getting a big dose of deja vu with your postings.....maybe it is coincidence but my goodness me you seem to be following the same playbook as some of your banned pals

[mr.chicken]

@Rockets, @Spartacus , enjoying a good  tag teaming? Which one of you is going to use the chair?

It's not my job to spend hours doing research to answer a question you're not remotely interested in the answer to. If you wanted to know you could use your own time and brains to figure it out. It's not the epic own you seem to think it is that I'm not wasting a lot of time so you can ignore then answer, move on to the next thing maybe make up new porkies about me. Something you've both done.

I'm assuming of course you're talking about traffic numbers, neither you nor Spartacus are very clear on which question you're both weirdly sore about.

[snowy]

Rockets, thanks for agreeing London isn't the most congested city on the world.
 

As for INRIX, I don't know. Does that report tell you? It tells you in one part that major road works (nb not LTN) stopped in one city, resulting in a large reduction in congestion from the last year.

It tells you that the majority (>75%) of uk cities had increased congestion. I'm not sure 75% of cities in the uk have LTNs do they? It also says that there's a significant impact in different cities and the way they returned to work post covid.

But how does INRIX measure congestion?

Oh yes, their methodology (apart from ignoring data from China and India) for their congestion rankings is based on an assumption that you should be able to travel at the same speed at peak time as off peak. Their methodology then uses that difference to create a ranking. Can you see a flaw?
 

They also don't factor in the length of the journey taken. So sprawling carcentric cities get lower rankings (which is why LA doesn't feature and we all know what Dione Warwick's pithy transport evaluation of that city was). 

Inrix say that global road gridlock is getting closer and that road pricing (not means tested) is the answer.

[Rockets]

Snowy, that reads like us depositioning some Aldred research - welcome to the "yeah but" club! 😉

Could it be, perhaps, that all the measures, including LTNs, new cycle infrastructure (especially across bridges) has had a detrimental impact on congestion in London? 

 

And should you not be heralding that as showing the measures are working because is the point of many of them not to make car travel so infuriating that people find some other way?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Rockets

[snowy]

You must be exhausted after all this goal post moving. 

[first mate]

A true example of moving goal posts is the stance of Cllr McAsh on CPZ.

First he stated only streets that wanted CPZ' would get them, next he did a complete about turn and said that now there would be borough wide CPZ and this had been supported by the results of the last election, despite there being no mention of borough wide CPZ in the manifesto.

He claims door step conversations somehow mandated a borough wide CPZ.

Cllr McAsh' door step conversations were also used to shoehorn in and justify part closure of Melbourne Grove, despite a clear majority against doing that on that street.

If you want to see moving goal posts on a large scale, look no further than Southwark Labour's imposition of borough wide CPZ.