Southwark-wide CPZ

[Andrea Mac]

We need to get all the groups together 

Nunhead and Queens road are on opposethecpz.org 

there are 3 or 4 different petitions just against cpz in Dulwich hill on the Southwark petitions website 

so if everyone can make contact via the website absolve we can all join forces 

On 19/07/2023 at 15:03, JMK said:

is there a lawyer who can advise at a high level as to the legal basis upon which Southwark Council can implement a CPZ such as this and the routes available to challenge it, if any?

It strikes me as possibly being "ultra vires" but that's a question of law

And certainly disproportionate to anything to do with traffic management

thanks in advance

Yes, legal routes are being explored and the pressing thing for now is to get everyone from all the areas talking to each other. Queens Road and Nunhead are pretty far along and are on opposethecpz.org 

we can all make contact there 

[legalalien]

For info Southwark is planning to update its Parking Enforcement Protocol, principally to reduce / in some cases remove the 5 min observation time before a ticket  can be issued, for various types of contravention

https://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=50032081

 

[Rockets]

 

I suspect the 5 minute grace peruod has reduced the number of tickets they can issue and with CPZs coming they know from other boroughs that they can increase the number of fines significantly.

 

They have probably run the revenue numbers of 2 vs 5 minutes and like what they see.

 

How charitable of them.....;-)

[march46]

Here are the actual reasons stated for the change. I’m pleased they’re listening to residents and businesses to tackle inconsiderate parking by drivers.

[first mate]

17 hours ago, Andrea Mac said:

We need to get all the groups together 

Nunhead and Queens road are on opposethecpz.org 

there are 3 or 4 different petitions just against cpz in Dulwich hill on the Southwark petitions website 

so if everyone can make contact via the website absolve we can all join forces 

Yes, legal routes are being explored and the pressing thing for now is to get everyone from all the areas talking to each other. Queens Road and Nunhead are pretty far along and are on opposethecpz.org 

we can all make contact there 

Is it clear who in a given area they accept input from?

[Rockets]

3 hours ago, march46 said:

Here are the actual reasons stated for the change. I’m pleased they’re listening to residents and businesses to tackle inconsiderate parking by drivers.

The problem is there is no consistency in the new rules, some are now two minutes, some are now immediate. Perhaps designed to add confusion? Will also probably lead to confusion by traffic officers as different rules now apply in different circumstances for different bays. 5 minutes seemed to be a universally accepted sensible rule so seems like other motivations are behind this and I very much suspect that is more revenue generation.

 

Is 5 mins not the rule everywhere else? I don't like it when councils deliberately go against the norm, like yellow line parking on Sundays which is enforced by some and not others.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Rockets

[march46]

The problem is drivers parking inconsiderately -  CEOs no longer having to wait 5 mins for a driver to switch of their idling engine when asked is a good thing. 

 

[Rockets]

Yes that is a good thing when it comes to idling engines but not when it comes to delivery drivers. You can't make a delivery (other than small Amazon parcels) in two minutes so those who have shopping delivered within CPZ areas may find the drivers struggle. 

 

I think the "we have listened to businesses" is a smoke screen and this is about maximising revenue opportunities and targeting delivery drivers as an opportunity to raise more funds.

Yesterday Keir was trying to tell everyone Labour are the party of working people....hmm....

[tiddles]

I guarantee they are NOT listening to businesses…. The shops in Dulwich Village have had several meetings with the council regarding the negative impact the LTN’s have had on their businesses and have been utterly disregarded. 

[first mate]

It is good to see that there is some sort of record of what was said by Cllr McAsh on CPZ plans at the recent Assembly. That was the meeting where the sound was so bad on the YouTube video, it was unintelligible.

On reassurances that he gave in the past he is pretty shameless, saying that because there is a new plan no undertakings or promises given prior to that count in any way. We should all remember that.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/southwark/councillor-under-fire-for-a-blog-post-from-4-years-ago-that-contradicts-councils-cpz-policy/

[Friernlocal]

I'd also like to make a point that hasn't yet been mentioned about the CPZ. There are a number of homes that have a crossover drive and more than one vehicle. Some residents park one car on the  drive and the other across their drive on the road. As far as I'm aware this technically breaches highway code 243 which states 'do not stop or park infront of an entrance to a property', (no mention of an exemption if it's your own property). Currently with no parking enforcement in place this practice goes unenforced. You can imagine that once the council start enforcing parking, any infringement will be swiftly punished. 

[pebs]

Is there a petition to express views against this unbelievable undemocratic nonsense? Thanks. If one exists perhaps it could be pinned somewhere?

[Spartacus]

If a CPZ is introduced, double yellow lines across and extending past each dropped curb will appear making it illegal to park across their own drive. 

Where two houses next to each other have a dropped curb, the two parking spaces between will become only one due to these extended lines.

Don't expect to retain as many parking spaces in your road as there are now. 

[first mate]

11 minutes ago, pebs said:

Is there a petition to express views against this unbelievable undemocratic nonsense? Thanks. If one exists perhaps it could be pinned somewhere?

Yes go to opposethecpz.org 

[pebs]

Thanks First Mate!

[Spartacus]

Maybe southwark Labour should take note here and start listening to residents concerns. 🤔

BBC News - Uxbridge: Keir Starmer says Labour must learn lessons of by-election defeat
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66277211

 

[Rockets]

Don't hold your breath...Southwark is one the Labour councils most likely to resist and fight against Keir and his sensible centrist politics. Momentum and the far left is still strong in Southwark and they don't have the best track record for listening to the electorate.

[first mate]

Nonetheless, anyone who does wish to take a stand on this can go to opposethecpz.org

[malumbu]

It's refreshing that unlike the Labour leader that some councils are prepared to stick their neck out to take action on the climate emergency.  

[first mate]

Not so refreshing when it is ill thought out and undemocratic.

[Penguin68]

I believe the council has just announced that they plan to reduce to 0 minutes (it used to be 5) the 'tolerance' for parking breeches. This, in effect, means that anyone expecting a simple delivery (Amazon, supermarket etc.) will need to buy parking time anywhere in Southwark if the delivery agent is not to risk a £60 fine. Or, in other words, I suspect, it will mean that many carriers will refuse to deliver in Southwark. Oh, and don't expect the Post Office to continue to send out vans with post in them from Peckham, when they won't be able to park-up in SE22 to deliver 'ED' Delivery Office mail.  Or even to collect mail from post boxes. Because we know the agents employed to 'police' the new CPZs will be encouraged to fine everyone to generate the revenues the council wants, and they'll go for the easy targets. The - well I was going to say 'unintended' - but of course the council couldn't give a damn - consequences of this disastrous set of council decisions will be dire.

And, before anyone weighs in about the environment - whilst environmental intentions may be admirable - it is the actual impact of those which are key. The Aztecs ripped the hearts out of people to ensure the sun rose each day - well it did - but perhaps not as a function of human sacrifice. There is no evidence at all at the moment that the actions of the council have had any net benefical impact on the environment.

Oh (just to wind certain people up) - the current suggestions that it is only 'fair' that people in the south of the borough pay for roads as those in existing CPZs do in the north - as has been pointed out on a number of occasions, car ownership in the (very well served by public transport) north of the borough is comparatively low - so there are lots of free loading no-car-owners taking benefit from the roads which they use (buses, taxis, shared usage) without paying a red cent for them, as it is clear that the hypothecated revenues from the car owning community are now, or will be, paying for Southwark's roads. Where's the 'fairness' of that? (as if fairness, rather than a hatred of the kulak class was the driver in our branch of North Korea).

[shoebox]

Is there a Southwark wide petition to object against CPZs? As petitions are all about numbers, solidarity of the wards would have more impact and clout

[first mate]

Go to opposethecpz.org

[JMK]

Just to note that, according to Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation, EV's are not the panacea to climate change or local air quality issues and will make particulate emissions worse which they classify at "the most dangerous pollutant for human health"

 

"Whilst the proliferation of electric or zero emission vehicles (ZEVs) is likely to reduce NO2 concentrations, it will not improve air quality in its entirety. This is because a significant amount of PM2.5 is released from tyre, brake and road abrasion, rather than through exhaust emissions. The government’s own air quality expert group notes that “particles from brake wear, tyre wear and road surface wear currently constitute 60% and 73% (by mass), respectively, of primary PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from road transport, and will become more dominant in the future”, as vehicles become larger and heavier.iii"

Written evidence, Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation (CCE0012)

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/41541/pdf/

 

The point also applies to many popular cars incl. 4x4s sixe to their size and weight; however, taking spiteful and arbitrary action as Southwark Council is doing with the CPZ is not the answer but certainly discriminatory and likely to be unlawful too

[Moovart]

15 hours ago, JMK said:

Just to note that, according to Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation, EV's are not the panacea to climate change or local air quality issues and will make particulate emissions worse which they classify at "the most dangerous pollutant for human health"

 

"Whilst the proliferation of electric or zero emission vehicles (ZEVs) is likely to reduce NO2 concentrations, it will not improve air quality in its entirety. This is because a significant amount of PM2.5 is released from tyre, brake and road abrasion, rather than through exhaust emissions. The government’s own air quality expert group notes that “particles from brake wear, tyre wear and road surface wear currently constitute 60% and 73% (by mass), respectively, of primary PM2.5 and PM10 emissions from road transport, and will become more dominant in the future”, as vehicles become larger and heavier.iii"

Written evidence, Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation (CCE0012)

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/41541/pdf/

 

The point also applies to many popular cars incl. 4x4s sixe to their size and weight; however, taking spiteful and arbitrary action as Southwark Council is doing with the CPZ is not the answer but certainly discriminatory and likely to be unlawful too

Hope we're not being led down another mistaken route like we were years ago when we were told to buy diesel cars to reduce CO2 emissions.🤔