LTN Discussion

[Bicknell]

if its about where they live you can see where supporters come from on thier website

https://www.onedulwich.uk/supporters

[march46]

It’s a mailing list, nothing more. Given One Dulwich’s spokesperson made abhorrent comparisons between planters and the Berlin Wall I imagine their credibility is shot, and it’s absolutely right for our MP to ask for details about who they are representing. I suspect a dwindling number.

[first mate]

Whatever the technicalities of what HH can or cannot do, it does read as though the group is being blocked one way or another, as well as framed in a misleading way (activists). It does not feel very democratic. And yes, a number of us saw how the reps were treated by Cllrs Williams and Rose at the famous "mansplaining" outburst.

[Rockets]

Since day one of the LTN debacle both the council, councillors, elected officials and the pro-LTN supporters have been more inclined to demonise rather than debate with anyone who doesn't agree with the path they have taken.

There are plenty of examples of this happening in relation to the Dulwich LTNs and this looks like another attempt to avoid any debate with constituents - a worrying trend and not what elected officials should be doing.

[Rockets]

It’s a mailing list, nothing more. Given One Dulwich’s spokesperson made abhorrent comparisons between planters and the Berlin Wall I imagine their credibility is shot, and it’s absolutely right for our MP to ask for details about who they are representing. I suspect a dwindling number.

 

!Abhorrent!

And to validate my point on the demonising of anyone who dares to question the LTNs......perfect timing March46!!!

[Rockets]

And then Will Norman posts this:

https://twitter.com/willnorman/status/1626168482302664704?t=RfMjVyNrUV_ATge0R0u4Fg&s=19

which again goes to show how there are those who are happy to demonise anyone who dares question their plans.....Will Norman categorising people who challenge the premise of the viability of a 15-minute city (which interestingly the author of the piece does cover) as #absolutenutters is not at all helpful and kind of surprising he choses to use that language.

If anyone who questions his plan is a "nutter" then maybe it's a case of the lunatics running the asylum!

[malumbu]

Take a deep breath Rocks and read the article again. I found it an interesting one.

The difficulty is that your tirade paints you out to be a right wing libertarian opposed to any interventions. My unscientific survey of one of my WhatsApp group is the two people angry about the concept are anti vaxers

I'm sure you are none of these but the knee jerk postings do not help your argument. It would be great if you stick to your usual script - incompetent corrupt local authority, guerilla cyclists etc as I won't be tempted to post.

[Rockets]

Malumbu - please do take time to read and digest my post properly next time before jumping on your keyboard.......my ire is with Will Norman's post not the article.....

And no my post doesn't paint me as anything....it is, in fact, your post that tries to paint me as something - which is merely illustrating the point I am trying to make.

So many thanks for that - you're always such a reliable bait-taker!!! ;-)

As I was saying...there are many on the pro-LTN side who would rather demonise rather than debate.....

[Spartacus]

I really liked the quote

"#GreatReset, referring to the World Economic Forum’s post-pandemic economic recovery plan – widely used in the stranger corners of the internet as a byword for a shadowy global conspiracy intent on robbing us of our freedoms. The anti-vaccine, pro-Brexit, climate-denying, 15-minute-phobe, Great Reset axis is a strong one."

Where the author puts anyone who objects to the idea in the same basket as anti voters, Brexiteers and climate deniers"

It kind of validates Rockets theory of demonising anyone who disagrees with one sides point of view.

[heartblock]

Exactly - a perfect example of smearing anyone with an opposing position by intimating they are anti-vaxers, Trumpians, misguided, climate-deniers, far-right etc.

Rather than the teachers, Mums, health-workers etc. who travel by bus, foot, cycle and train - who's daily life has become far worse due to idling traffic, pollution and longer bus journeys because of these poorly planned LTNs. LTNs by the way on roads that are car-storage for the wealthiest people in ED.

15 minute... the 37 bus now takes so long to travel down ED Grove it has added more than 15 minute's to a daily journey to work.

[Bic Basher]

If you think getting on a bus is slow enough with 20mph speed limits and the ED/Village LTNs, the bus lane on Waterloo Road outside Waterloo Station has been reduced to extend the pavement while the bus lane on Waterloo Bridge has been replaced with a cycle lane, leaving the 176 stuck in traffic northbound with other traffic to allow bikes free reign across the bridge.

The cycle lane previously which was shared with buses was perfectly adequate, but has led to the 176 having gaps in service.

[Spartacus]

Maybe TfL will start to realise that not everyone is happy with their decisions

BBC News - ULEZ: Five councils launch legal challenge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64662423

[CPR Dave]

your tirade paints you out to be a right wing libertarian

 

This confirms that LTNs are a purely left wing ideological imposition that is intrinsically authoritarian.

Lots of proponents have argued against that idea (pretending there is some green benfit, mostly) but you have showed your hand here with this outburst.

[CPR Dave]

Spartacus, that was a Mayor of London decision, not TfL.

[jazzer]

London does not need a Mayor of London, we were fine before and we can get on with our lives without Khan who is a dictator and tyrant, in fact we do not need one FULLSTOP.

All he does is extract money from Londoners, continually increasing the costs Londoners endure on a daily basis.

The rational for imposing ULEZ in outer London boroughs, however the outer London boroughs do not need ULEZ, they are probably the greenest boroughs in London anyway, i.e. Bromley. Khan has successfully contradicted himself, it is nothing less than a money grab in an attempt to cover the hige errors he made with TfL during the pandemic when transport in London was free. He messed up, why is ne making Londoners pay for his mistakes. How about cutting the excessive salaries of TfL senior management staff.

[ab29]

Free public transport in Montpelier

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/02/16/this-european-city-is-making-public-transport-free-for-citizens-from-december?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1MJmWgPXVnKsREzcCBeoWbkTdZSHtiVSWmpTVgG7h1COPIQYB-4rVee14#Echobox=1676561258

[ab29]

Agree

 

Exactly - a perfect example of smearing anyone with an opposing position by intimating they are anti-vaxers, Trumpians, misguided, climate-deniers, far-right etc.

Rather than the teachers, Mums, health-workers etc. who travel by bus, foot, cycle and train - who's daily life has become far worse due to idling traffic, pollution and longer bus journeys because of these poorly planned LTNs. LTNs by the way on roads that are car-storage for the wealthiest people in ED.

15 minute... the 37 bus now takes so long to travel down ED Grove it has added more than 15 minute's to a daily journey to work.

[ab29]

Agree - sad, dangerous and harmful (=LTN)

I live on a main road and I'm directily affected by the LTN - what does it take for pro LTN commando to realise this is a real problem - people dying?

 

your tirade paints you out to be a right wing libertarian

 

This confirms that LTNs are a purely left wing ideological imposition that is intrinsically authoritarian.

Lots of proponents have argued against that idea (pretending there is some green benfit, mostly) but you have showed your hand here with this outburst.

[malumbu]

ULEZ is a separate issue to LTNs, you can start a separate thread to complain about that, but it is here to stay rightly or wrongly so get used to it.

As I have posted numerous times the concept was introduced by a Tory Mayor, who became a Tory PM, and was a champion of cycling, perhaps you could also complain to Mr A B d-P Johnson MP, House of Commons, SW1A 0AA.

The government was ordered by the High Court in 2015 to meet international standards for air quality in as short as time as possible. Still not meeting them in many areas, particularly urban. Government reports that between 28000 and 36000 deaths a year in the UK due to poor air quality https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air-pollution-applying-all-our-health/air-pollution-applying-all-our-health

Some data: from National Audit Office: https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Tackling-local-breaches-of-air-quality.pdf

Tackling local breaches of air quality Summary 13

Conclusion

23 The NO2 Programme, established to tackle illegal and dangerous levels of pollution, has become government’s largest dedicated air quality initiative. Government has made progress, with measures fully implemented in 14 local authorities and four sections of the Strategic Road Network. However, the Programme has not moved as fast as expected. While this is undoubtedly due in part to the COVID-19 pandemic, other factors including the effectiveness of public engagement have likely played a role, and government has not had a good overview

of the relative impact of different issues. It has also been slow to consider the case for national action to tackle the challenges on major roads and motorways that mean overall compliance cannot be achieved until after 2030. This is more than four years later than government expected when it published its plan for tackling NO2 in 2017. For these reasons we cannot yet be confident that the Programme is on track to

deliver value for money

Interestingly our first Mayor, an independent, came in on a ticket that included a congestion charge. Imagine that. oo

[ab29]

deleted

[Spartacus]

Mal

The concept of the ULEZ isn't the issue most are objecting to.

Its the timing when prices are on the rise, inflation is high and people are struggling with the choice of heat or eat.

TfL should be considering a delay by a year or two to widen the zone rather then impacting people by what

Is being seen by many in the outer zones as a tax generator to fix the Mayors mistakes in running TfL. (Although the Mayor tries to spins it as the Government didn't give him enough cash to support his epic failures)

Ps AB29 I saw what you wrote 😅

[CPR Dave]

It's also partly because it's being imposed on people who live far away from London who didn't vote for Sadiq Khan as their mayor and who have even worse access to tfl services than we do here in so-called "Zone 2".

[ab29]

Lol yeah, it didn't seem right in the end ;)

Am actually all for ULEZ - it might at least improve the air quality on South Circular, even if only slightly.

I used to worry about climate change: mindful of recycling, using your own mug for take away coffee, reusable bags, buying locally etc. All of this changed with the introduction of LTN - seems as the only thing that matters is what citizens of certain roads want and how this benefits the Southwark council.

Why should I care?

 

Mal

The concept of the ULEZ isn't the issue most are objecting to.

Its the timing when prices are on the rise, inflation is high and people are struggling with the choice of heat or eat.

TfL should be considering a delay by a year or two to widen the zone rather then impacting people by what

Is being seen by many in the outer zones as a tax generator to fix the Mayors mistakes in running TfL. (Although the Mayor tries to spins it as the Government didn't give him enough cash to support his epic failures)

Ps AB29 I saw what you wrote 😅

[heartblock]

Well I still recycle, walk, take the bus, train, mostly vegan etc. You are right though, only certain 'neighbourhoods' matter to this flawed Council. My neighbourhood was an LTN today as school half term and road closed for resurfacing..... fresh, clean air for a day...no traffic noise...if only I was a wealthy 3 vehicle, 2nd home owning, Gilkes Crescent, 2.5 Mil house owning resident, I could have access to clean air and low noise pollution all the days of the year.

A LP Council benefiting the wealthy.. sad days indeed.

[Bic Basher]

School holidays are usually a delight for those of us who live on main roads, but at my end of LL we've had to put up with roadworks by Hornimans AGAIN which caused jams back to near the library and even today and yesterday cars piling up to turn right into Dulwich Common which used to be much easier when Court Lane/Calton Avenue were open.