LTN Discussion

[heartblock]

The big flaw in all this data is not measuring increases in congestion. The pneumatic traffic counters are useless at this - even the manufacturers of these counters state they should not be utilised on roads where traffic idles or travels under 20km/hr.

I do wonder if the counters on ED Grove count any of the morning traffic, that travels below 10Km/hr. At the moment with Townley rd -ED Grove road works it is lethal out there with car fumes, triggered my asthma this morning walking to Herne Hill Station, who knows what damage it is doing to all those young lungs on the school run. Southwark Councillors should be ashamed - not seen any of them on ED Grove since the last local election....have disappeared - much like the traffic hasn't.

[zerkalo]

You (Malumbu) don't say cars should be banned, but it is formal Southwark labour policy to work towards removing private vehicles from Southwark. They are formally and officially anti car, even if you are not. And it is them calling the shots.

 

Where is this mentioned as a formal Southwark Labour policy please?

Labour-led Southwark borough are calling the shot because presumably they have been voted in to implement their policies. Banning private vehicles from driving in East Dulwich isn't one of them though, is it?

[Rockets]

I do wonder if there is a direct correlation between position of counters and reporting of increases in traffic on the dashboard. A lot of Southwark's counters are close to junctions (I suspect deliberately so to influence the reporting numbers) and many were moved closer to junctions after they were first installed.

Other councils have been caught moving strips closer to junctions recently (to ensure the strips sit under slow moving traffic) so this seems to be a fairly standard tactic to manipulate the output.

Am I right in thinking there is a map somewhere of the locations of the counters around Dulwich - wasn't it shared here and discussed during the East Dulwich Grove "reduction/disappearing traffic" debate? Does anyone remember/have it/have a link to it?

[Lebanums]

Just read an article about Oslo having a fully electric public transport system in 2023.

I spent a few years living in Oslo, without a car & borrowing an electric one when required. The public transport system meant I never needed a car (it was also reasonably cheap) & I used a bike in the fair weather. I also grew up in a small town in Scotland where the transport links were good, driving a car was never a second thought.

I never took my driving test until I moved to East Dulwich, the transport links just didn't work for me and still don't. I walk locally or take the bus or train when I go into the city, but I don't work in the city and getting there by public transport takes twice the time and twice the cost. In fair weather I cycle but I can't say I enjoy it, but it gets my exercise out of the way and I have secure storage on site to lock it up.

The council need to invest their money wisely, in councillors with the right skill set and new transport links rather than put blocks in that has us all divided. Each mind set will never see nor empathise with the other.

 

Spot on! And the council even admits that Dulwich has higher car ownership, in part, because of the poor transport links in the area (when compared to areas in the north of the borough). Correct me if I am wrong but has any part of our public transport network locally actually got better or been improved since these measures were put in?

 

I don't believe it has changed at all which is why it is still more convenient for people to use their cars in an LTN boundary road, would anyone choose to sit in idling traffic and increase our journey time if the public transport system worked?

[ab29]

Latest news on temporarily closed Dulwich Village junction.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/transport/dulwich-village-junction-cycle-lights-flash-green-and-red-simultaneously-claims-furious-local-group/?fbclid=IwAR2NCjRXefH8sM6CzNLUFrYacj6UW98HUT3cnXoA2bmSdB3zPibPRqdwn0g

[Rockets]

Southwark Council says it's 'fairly sure that what you describe isn’t possible'

but then:

on Tuesday evening clarified that Transport for London (TfL) had fixed the problem.

Ha ha.......

[first mate]

Just goes to show how fairly and objectively information from certain groups is treated.

[march46]

A traffic signal has failed and this is now news?!

Where was ‘One Dulwich’ / Richard Aldwinkle with his faux concern when the traffic lights failed last weekend at the East Dulwich Grove junction with Townley Rd? That was dangerous.

[Penguin68]

A traffic signal has failed and this is now news?!

 

I think because it failed in an unusual way - giving both red and green signals simultaneously, as I understand it. Electro-mechanical switching shouldn't allow that, I'm guessing; whereas digital switching might. If you stand by an old style traffic light you can hear a click, sometimes, as it moves between phases. Which I'm guessing is electro-mechanical switches operating.

[Rockets]

It was certainly giving off confusing messages.....

It must have been a slow news day but the fact you're annoyed that they have written about it probably shows their decision was justified such is the quest for news to generate attention and clicks nowadays (throughout all forms of media - local, regional, national - and not just Southwark News).

[Rockets]

A politician's worst nightmare....when your invited guest speaker throws you under the bus over your ULEZ plans....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64499710

[Spartacus]

Possibly doesn't help when outer councils are also challenging him

BBC News - ULEZ expansion: London mayor gives councils Thursday deadline

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64485157

And

BBC News - ULEZ expansion: Surrey County Council says it will not allow TfL warning signs

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-64496668

Although his tactics to get them to sign (sign or I force it through) are a bit bully boyish

[ab29]

One Dulwich

Campaign Update | 2 Feb

1. Dulwich Village junction update

The closure of Turney Road

We hear that Phase 3 of Dulwich Village Streets for People – a consultation on the final design for the Dulwich Village junction – will start early this month and run for 4 – 6 weeks.

Phase 2 of the scheme put forward the surprise proposal to close Turney Road. The Council received complaints from One Dulwich – and from many of you – about the inadequate consultation process, and a letter (see the Telegraph piece) signed by more than 600 local people questioning its legality. So far the Council’s response has been underwhelming, with objectors being asked to wait for Phase 3.

Plea from Blue Badge holders rejected

A group of Blue Badge holders wrote an open letter to the Leader of the Council on 27 November asking to be allowed access through the Dulwich Village junction. This was finally answered by Matt Clubb, Southwark’s director of environment, on 23 December. He says that the Council is not now considering access for this vulnerable group, because the junction is complex and it would be to the detriment of other protected characteristic groups and cyclists.

No explanation is provided as to why all these groups cannot be safely accommodated, as they are at the similarly complex Townley Road/East Dulwich Grove junction and at other junctions throughout the UK. See the email exchange on our website www.onedulwich.uk.

The issue of access for Blue Badge holders at the junction has received wide coverage, both in local and national newspapers (including the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail).

As we saw outlined in the December 2021 decision (see point 47 in the Council’s report), Southwark recognises that people who are car-dependent because of their disabilities need the Council’s help but has so far decided to ignore them.

Traffic light confusion

Meanwhile, traffic lights at the junction continue to cause confusion and concern (see the Southwark News piece here). Lights on the Turney Road side of the junction show green for pedestrians and cyclists at the same time, while the new signalised crossing on Calton Avenue gives pedestrians just ten seconds to cross, including a five-second countdown – clearly inadequate for small children and those in wheelchairs.

2. Croxted Road congestion ignored

Because of the displacement of traffic from the Dulwich LTNs, children walking to school on Croxted Road continue to breathe in high levels of pollution. See @AirCroxted’s regular photos on Twitter – heading for Day 600, and their calls for help are still being ignored.

[Rockets]

Anyone noticing new monitoring strips going in around Dulwich which are, ahem, close to junctions and traffic congestion points?

There are some on Lordship Lane and some in Dulwich Village placed close to junctions and are subject to slow moving/crawling traffic for many parts of the day...of course Rachel Aldred said in the last report on LTNs that "parked or very slow moving vehicles may affect the results.....but that.....in most cases count sites are placed away from junctions". Perhaps she should spend some of the £1.5m they are being paid for these reports to determine whether councils are placing the strips in places that will give accurate readings or not.....

[Rockets]

Wow,,,,one wonders whether the same intense scrutiny is provided to everyone who asks for MPs support and whether the council reviews everyone involved in any submission to the council for funding for local area projects (for example).

This is incredibly worrying if true:

Campaign Update | 14 Feb

Dulwich Village junction and MP Helen Hayes

In November last year, when Southwark was sending out mixed messages about who would be allowed access through the Dulwich Village junction, we wrote to our MP Helen Hayes asking if she would champion the needs of the most vulnerable.

We explained that the longer journeys caused by the closed junction are causing pain and distress for those who are car-dependent (including Blue Badge holders and the parents of children with SEND), and great difficulty for those who care for them (not just emergency vehicles but GPs, community midwives and nurses, emergency responders, and carers).

We have yet to receive a response from Helen confirming that she will do this. Instead, we have had a series of emails from her to say that before responding to this she wants a full list of One Dulwich “activists”. This has surprised us, as Helen has been meeting with, and corresponding with, a core team of One Dulwich representatives since 2020, and has never raised this question before. So her motive in asking for this now is not at all clear.

We have reminded Helen of the names she already knows. Obviously, because of data protection law, we can’t pass on information about our 2,100+ supporters without first asking permission from each individual. Identifying “activists” would be a huge task because hundreds of you have provided, and continue to provide, active help in so many different ways.

While we continue to press Helen about why she wants the names of all those exercising their legal and democratic right to protest, our original request in November 2022 still stands. We believe that Helen has a duty as our local MP to represent and champion the needs of all her constituents, especially the most vulnerable, and we will continue to request that she does this with the Council.

While we wait for a response from Helen, if you would like her to speak to the Council on behalf of those who need direct access through the junction (for themselves and for those who care for them) because of specific health and disability issues, please email her on [email protected].

Southwark will shortly open its public consultation on the final design of the junction. We will be writing to you about that in due course.

Thank you for your support.

[northernmonkey]

Come on Rockets, this was a pitiful attempt at spin even given One Dulwich’s history to date, but let’s give up with the fake ‘wow, isn’t this dreadful’ from you.

One Dulwich key people - like Richard Aldwinkle (Dulwich square is like the Berlin Wall deleted tweet dude) know full well that whenever you email your MP they ask for your name and full address. ANYONE emailing Helen Hayes gets an auto reply with a request to send this if they haven’t already.

Attempts to make this seem like some anti democratic mandate are weasel-y spin - MPs can only act for their constituents and this is well known.

[Rockets]

I am presuming "activists" is the term Helen Hayes is using to the describe the members of One Dulwich when she is asking for the list of names - which is clear One Dulwich are suggesting is the case? If so is it yet another example of the contempt with which local elected officials are treating constituents who dare have a differing view to theirs....it's a trend we have seen plenty of from our local councillors over this matter since it's inception.

They seemingly welcome groups of actual activists who cause harm to London life (XR on Peckham Rye) yet challenge groups of local residents who dare to be concerned about the measures the council's have implemented.

Some very dangerous precedents, in terms of conscious bias, are being set if these allegations are true.

[northernmonkey]

Or as already pointed out- it’s a standard part of acting as an MP- they can only engage on issues with their constituents!

You know this, One Dulwich know this but the more desperate attempts at characterising it as something problematic show just how grasping their / your whole campaign has become!

Really, the best time to have stopped with this ridiculous line of outrage in terms of a non event would have been before you posted it, the second best is now!

[Penguin68]

they can only engage on issues with their constituents!

There is absolutely no bar on MPs engaging on issues with anyone - they may choose not to work with people not constituents, but it's a choice.

That was confirmed to me by a former senior advisor to a number of former leading Labour MPs (in succession). Any MP who suggests that it is somehow 'the law' is just making it up. There are numbers of cross-constituency issues where MPs choose to talk to individuals, not themselves constituents but constituents of neighbouring MPs. Again, many MPs champion particular causes and talk to anyone else involved in that cause. Where it would be wrong (at least morally) is if an MP chose to present him or herself as 'representing' someone not a constituent, which would not be the case. Putting forward or supporting a case where both constituents and non constituents were effected (for instance the terrible case of those sub-postmasters wrongly accused of crimes by the PO) would be entirely appropriate.

An MP is elected to represent a constituency - if any undertake 'vetting' of constituents to weed out political opponents - and I'm sure that can't have happened here (!) - this would be a disgrace.

[northernmonkey]

Penguin- you are correct that they are not legally prohibited, but protocol is that they don’t act for non constituent unless some unusual fact pattern.

Helen Hayes standard auto reply asks for name and address details so asking for details as to who One Dulwich represents on this basis is wholly consistent and efforts to make it seem not are disingenuous

[Rockets]

But Northern if you read the One Dulwich update it seems clear that this goes far further than an auto-reply from an MP.; that dialogue has been taking place but now there has been a request to see the details of all the One Dulwich "activists". If Helen Hayes chose to use the word activist in any missive about One Dulwich members then that is incredibly worrying.

Granted there are those in One Dulwich who, I am sure, are not Labour supporters but there is a very worrying trend happening here. Take the council meeting where Clrr Rose had her "man-splaining" outburst,, both her and Cllr Williams seemed far more concerned that the two representatives had dared to run against them as Tory councillors than the point they were trying to raise with both sitting councillors putting party politics over constituency matters.

[first mate]

I also think choosing to use the word activist looks extremely weighted and bad form. Are other interested groups, but those with views more in line with Southwark Labour, also referred to as activists?

Is there also a demand for full disclosure of detail of all those other group members before our MP or Councillors engage, I doubt it.

[northernmonkey]

Still trying I see Rockets….

Replace activists with ‘members’ would that make you feel better?

It is undoubtedly the case that a number of One Dulwich mailing list sign ups are not Helen’s constituents. One Dulwich do like to hold themselves out as representing x number of residents and always with an inference that everyone is from the local area which isn’t the case and it’s not inconceivable that this is the line they’ve been taking in discussions with her.

It’s fair for her to want to understand how many are her constituents in terms of representation. Nothing to do with which party they support or anything else you’re trying to shoehorn in but purely in terms of understanding whether the obviously increasing demands on her time that are being made by One Dulwich do in fact represent interests of anything close to a significant number of her constituents.

Also I’ve had a look and for a group wanting such political legitimacy they’re surprisingly opaque. There have been spokespeople occasionally but otherwise there seems to be no governance structure / AGM etc - instead they’re essentially a few spokespeople with a mailing list. There is a place for this but it’s doesn’t give them the credibility / stakeholder status they seem to expect.

[heartblock]

Southwark Councillors have definitely painted One Dulwich as Conservative activists, so they can dismiss the questions and concerns from residents. This is a ploy used by many who promote road closures.

A group of left leaning, different ethnicities women on Twitter, including teachers, other professionals and clean air activist Mums, with children suffering from asthma have noticed that they are told on a regular basis, usually by young, white male cyclists or Southwark/Lambeth/Hackney Councillors that they are...

Mis-informed, easily-led, right-Wing, Covid deniers, anti-vaxers, climate-change deniers and various ways of calling them stupid.

It’s a ploy, by smearing people or classifying them as thinking in some self-serving or unpopular political choice then the person discussing the points being made is attacked to detract from the fact the point or question is not addressed.

Southwark Council seem particularly well versed on using this ploy, when the question or point becomes too difficult to answer or an action too difficult to defend - then they attack the messenger personally.

I don’t know what Helen said myself, I’m very left wing, definitely more left wing than the current Labour Party or this diabolical Labour Council and I support almost all of One Dulwich’s points and disagree on some. Helen should engage, it’s a valid group with a mix of political views and a high number of elderly and less mobile residents.

[CPR Dave]

protocol is that they don’t act for non constituents

 

Did she observe this protocol when she got involved with Dulwich Hamlet FC which is nowhere near her constituency?